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Old 08-09-2010, 08:53 AM   #16
Leroy
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Do I win a cookie?
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Old 08-09-2010, 08:55 AM   #17
Thomas Durante
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In contrast, here is another "questionable" type of S&L para badge. Again, its made with the same wartime eagle and wreath, but the eagle is made from Cupal with aluminum rivets. This is inconsistent with "textbook" S&L badges that were usually ALL made from zinc.

However, the pin has the textbook wartime oval tool mark near the hinge and therefore I am confident that this means its a wartime produced badge.

So thats the theory guys, simple but VERY effective as far as I am concerned. Looking forward to your thoughts and lets find some more questionable badges to put to the test. If someone were to ask me what the most important question I had for this hobby, I would have said the ability to tell a post war S&L badge from a wartime produced example. I think we have now found the answer to this question in my opinion.

Tom
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Old 08-09-2010, 08:55 AM   #18
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Tom,very interesting observation, Sherlock Holmes of TR badges strikes back
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:03 AM   #19
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This is interesting...but also very odd at the same time.
Sounds plausible, but what would cause these marks?
The "wartime" mark I can sort of understand, as it could be from forming the pin. But the postwar mark I can't understand at all.

/Flemming
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:04 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy View Post
Do I win a cookie?
I don't know Leroy

I thought you and I talkeda bout this when you sent me the pics of the solid-backed Anti-partisan badge back after the SOS. I know I asked for good pics of this area of the hinge, but can't remember if we talked any further about it.

But I'll give you a cookie anyway for joining the discussion

Tom
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:06 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flemming View Post
Sounds plausible, but what would cause these marks?
The "wartime" mark I can sort of understand, as it could be from forming the pin. But the postwar mark I can't understand at all.

/Flemming
Hi Flemming,

Both marks were made by forming the pin, its just a matter of the different tools S&L used to bend the pin. That is what makes the time difference so signficant. With at least 12 years between 1945 and 1957, S&L must have changed their tools up that were used to bend the pins.

Tom
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:09 AM   #22
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Thank you for that information Tom.

/Flemming
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:12 AM   #23
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...once again, " Eagle Eye" Thomas made a great job!

Thanks a lot for that research.

Best
Martin
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:34 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Durante View Post

I thought you and I talkeda bout this when you sent me the pics of the solid-backed Anti-partisan badge back after the SOS. I know I asked for good pics of this area of the hinge, but can't remember if we talked any further about it.

But I'll give you a cookie anyway for joining the discussion
Tom
No, we didn't really get into it very deeply. I just sent a better photo of the area and you said you were looking into pin marks to try to determine time of manufacture. Didn't realize you meant to create an absolute "cut-off" (which is a fine idea, by the way).

I believe that what you will find is that the "57 pin" came first, followed by first-time renewed stamping (and continued use of leftover parts). In other words, the 57 issues came and were in circulation before the re-stamping ever started. What I "hear" is that S&L's involvement in new manufacture of wartime pieces started in the early 60's and really expanded in the 70's (which matches very nicely the growth of this hobby).
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Old 08-09-2010, 06:02 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy View Post
Didn't realize you meant to create an absolute "cut-off" (which is a fine idea, by the way).
Hi Leroy,

Well, its just a theory, but seems to hold water from all the badges that I have had the opportunity to study over the last few months. This is especially true with the Paratrooper badges, as this was the main badge I was researching and studying in preparation for my book. There may not be an exact "cut off", but it sure seems that way to me and is logical if you think that there was 12 years between wartime production and new production (plenty of time for new workers, new tools, new techniques, etc. over a 12 year gap in production).

One question though, what do you mean by "1957 pin"? When someone says that, I immediately think of the fat, rounded pins used on 1970s production, and NOT the thin, round wire pins used during the war and on early 1957 badges.

Thanks

Tom
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Old 08-09-2010, 06:26 PM   #26
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Sorry, Tom. I meant the pin used on the first '57 issues.
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Old 08-09-2010, 08:34 PM   #27
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Great point Tom and I'm sure that it will be a consistant one in identifying wartime s&l badges from hence forth!- will be for me anyway! Another note to add is that the last para you show with the cupal eagle - that actual badge was owned by me recently and was sold by Carsten Baldes who was absolutely happy it was a wartime badge.
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:55 PM   #28
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What do you think about this one. This is a badge I sold a while back, but have always felt it was war-time. It looks like the dimple is oval on this guy, what do you think?
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Old 08-10-2010, 08:45 AM   #29
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Hi Chad,

Thanks for posting this badge. It looks to me to have the typical "1957-scrape" rather than the wartime dimple. It just looks a little different because there are 2 distinct tool marks where the worker had to grip it twice to bend the pin, but they both appear to have the long, vertical strip identical to the 1957-scrape.

I told you when you first posted this badge a year or so ago that I considered it "questionable", which I based mainly on the small oval plate under the hingeblock. So yet again, we find ANOTHER "questionable" or "contentious" badge that doesn't match what we all consider to be a normal, textbook wartime S&L Flak badge. Not only does the oval plate make it different, but the hinge block itself is IDENTICAL to S&L's 1957 products. So even before we knew about my theory on the "1957 scrape", we considered this badge to be questionable. Now that we find the 1957 scrape on it, it only confirms what we previously thought that this is likely a post war badge in my opinion.

The reason why the oval plate is questionable, is because it is NOT found on textbook, wartime S&L badges. However, it is found on several types of reproductions. Here are just a quick few. First is a glider badge with the same hinge setup, marked with a tiny "L58" mark, which I think we can all agree was only used on postwar fakes by Souval. The second is an Antipartisan badge that Thomas Bendixen found, using the same hinge and coupled with a very common 1957-type pin. This badge was likely produced in the 1970s and notice that it carries a spurious L12 marker mark (exact same mark found on reproduction Para badges as well).

Tom
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File Type: jpg APB.JPG (87.6 KB, 374 views)
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Old 08-10-2010, 08:49 AM   #30
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Here are 2 others for you, both on VERY questionable badges. First is another glider, but this time with soldered eagle to the wreath rather than being rivetted in the normal, wartime fashion. The 2nd is a semi-hollow pilot badge, also with the eagle soldered onto the wreath. Again, not in the typical wartime fashion and it is very similar in construction to the semi-hollow para badge I have shown previously. I just received some VERY strong confirmation that these type of semi-hollow badges were indeed produced in the 1970s by S&L.

Tom
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File Type: jpg Pilot.jpg (148.7 KB, 373 views)
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