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Old 09-30-2015, 08:57 AM   #31
Norm F
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In contrast, the braid on the Type 2 (no provenance) patch in Grade 3 appears to be in wire bullion. Was gold wire bullion still being used on insignia this late in the war?
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File Type: jpg SSA gold 1.0.jpg (138.6 KB, 628 views)
File Type: jpg SSA gold 1.1.jpg (154.7 KB, 628 views)

Last edited by Norm F; 09-30-2015 at 09:03 AM.
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Old 09-30-2015, 09:24 AM   #32
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Two more examples of the Grade 3 Type 2 on light grey background with wire bullion cord. Same construction as the last one but with heavier grey bobbin thread used on the reverse (like the examples in post #14). The first one is the one that was added to the Weissinger grouping in the last 10 years. It has been reposted numerous times as an example of an "original" with no supporting evidence other than it was in the Weissinger grouping.
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File Type: jpg Sniper3.jpg (236.4 KB, 632 views)
File Type: jpg scharf3.jpg (238.2 KB, 631 views)

Last edited by Norm F; 09-30-2015 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 09-30-2015, 09:49 PM   #33
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Yikes! Here's another one of those Type 2, silver grade patches on Feldgrau backing with the heavy bobbin thread similar to the one in post #14. It supposedly sold on Hermann Historica back in 2012 for 3400 Euro. That's just sad...
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File Type: jpg IMG_1176.JPG (116.0 KB, 598 views)
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Old 09-14-2016, 08:23 PM   #34
Norm F
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Here's another minty grade 1 "Type 2" patch on Feldgrau, listed in auction with a starting price of 1500 Euro, indefensibly described as "textbook". Hope springs eternal.
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File Type: jpg 2000000097886-001.JPG (136.8 KB, 520 views)
File Type: jpg 2000000097886-002.JPG (143.4 KB, 522 views)

Last edited by Norm F; 09-14-2016 at 08:28 PM.
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Metallic wire piping . . .
Old 12-10-2016, 03:44 PM   #35
Diane
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Default Metallic wire piping . . .

Three strand wire piping over a cotton core was used until the and of the war, certainly. Manufacturers used whatever they had available.

The Speer Ministry ordered all metal and metallic wire insignia manufacture discontinued in 1944, but these material continued in use until stocks were used up.

BTW - I am the owner of the Franz Glomm template which came with a huge tailors lot, and believe it to we a wartime original.

Diane Schreiber

www.brandenburghistorica.com


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In contrast, the braid on the Type 2 (no provenance) patch in Grade 3 appears to be in wire bullion. Was gold wire bullion still being used on insignia this late in the war?
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Old 12-10-2016, 10:37 PM   #36
Chris Boonzaier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm F View Post
Franz Glomm did exist though. Here he is in the Berlin 1943 directory under the category "Schnitte u. Stanzen".
From the ad it seems it is a Metalwork stamping company? How did they bring in the sewing circle?

Best
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Old 12-10-2016, 10:56 PM   #37
Diane
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The templates were stamped. Meaning they were cut with a die.

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Old 02-10-2017, 06:06 PM   #38
Norm F
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Another example of the suspect "Grade 0" without border on coarse Feldgrau described in post #12. Mistakenly described as "A Rare Uniform Removed Wehrmacht Sniper's Badge; Third Class" for $1950 U.S, it's just another mint yet torn example of the same type offered by Staegemeir.
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Old 02-28-2019, 01:23 PM   #39
Norm F
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Going through my archives, I decided to subdivide the "Type 2" embroidery pattern into two categories, Type 2 and Type 3. There are further subtle variations within Types 2 and 3, probably related to different production runs, but this simplified system seems best for easy recognition and communication.

The easiest distinguishing feature to spot is the main stem of the oakleaves at the bottom.

Type 1 (the "Unteroffizier Heinrich Franken" type), as described previously shows an overall taller slimmer bird and the stem doesn't touch the green border at the bottom. Grey background cloth only.

Type 2 (no verifiable provenance) has a thicker neck on the bird and a longer thicker stem touching the green border at the bottom. Grey background cloth only.

Type 3 (no verifiable provenance) has a sharper corner in the white thread of the bird's "eyebrow" and shorter thicker stem touching the green border at the bottom. Grey background cloth in the silver and gold grade, and this is the embroidery pattern also seen on all grades of the feldgrau version.

For illustration I'll post all three types in each grade. First the basic grade:
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File Type: jpg Type1-basic.jpg (240.5 KB, 236 views)
File Type: jpg Type2-basic.jpg (240.5 KB, 235 views)
File Type: jpg Type3-basic-feldgrau.jpg (214.5 KB, 236 views)
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Old 02-28-2019, 01:25 PM   #40
Norm F
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Next, silver grade in all three types. The Type 3 pattern is seen on both grey and feldgrau backings.
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File Type: jpg Type1-silverC.jpg (237.9 KB, 234 views)
File Type: jpg Type2-silver.jpg (238.0 KB, 232 views)
File Type: jpg Type3-silver.jpg (239.6 KB, 233 views)
File Type: jpg Type3-silver-feldgrau.jpg (240.6 KB, 234 views)
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Old 02-28-2019, 01:30 PM   #41
Norm F
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Next, gold grade. Again, the Type 3 pattern is seen on both grey and feldgrau backings. The Type 1 (the Heinrich Franken type) has cellon braid on the border; Types 2 and 3 use bullion wire braid.
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File Type: jpg Type-1-gold.jpg (228.4 KB, 247 views)
File Type: jpg Type2-gold.jpg (240.0 KB, 243 views)
File Type: jpg Type3-gold.jpg (240.4 KB, 242 views)
File Type: jpg Type3-gold-feldgrau.jpg (239.1 KB, 242 views)
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Old 02-28-2019, 01:33 PM   #42
Norm F
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm F View Post
Going through my archives, I decided to subdivide the "Type 2" embroidery pattern into two categories, Type 2 and Type 3. There are further subtle variations within Types 2 and 3, probably related to different production runs, but this simplified system seems best for easy recognition and communication.

The easiest distinguishing feature to spot is the main stem of the oakleaves at the bottom.

Type 1 (the "Unteroffizier Heinrich Franken" type), as described previously shows an overall taller slimmer bird and the stem doesn't touch the green border at the bottom. Grey background cloth only.

Type 2 (no verifiable provenance) has a thicker neck on the bird and a longer thicker stem touching the green border at the bottom. Grey background cloth only.

Type 3 (no verifiable provenance) has a sharper corner in the white thread of the bird's "eyebrow" and shorter thicker stem touching the green border at the bottom. Grey background cloth in the silver and gold grade, and this is the embroidery pattern also seen on all grades of the feldgrau version.
For quick reference, here's a compilation to show some features of the 3 types in gold grade.
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File Type: jpg Types1-3-top.jpg (236.3 KB, 243 views)
File Type: jpg Types1-3-bottom.jpg (226.4 KB, 242 views)
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Old 02-28-2019, 02:02 PM   #43
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While I really appreciate what you are doing here Norm I do not believe we can look at patches with the same level of detail as we do badges. If one looks at the patches of veterans brought back by MAC V SOG special forces soldiers from Okinawa, Taiwan, and Vietnam during the Vietnam war one will find many differences in patches that they vet all got at the same time from the same shop in Taiwan. The author Jason Hardy has said that one must look for similarities rather than picking at small differences when it comes to patches.
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Old 02-28-2019, 02:05 PM   #44
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I agree with Jeff. Badges and cloth=apple and organges

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Old 05-19-2019, 06:39 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm F View Post
Well, certainly they've been posted here on WAF over the years. And unfortunately, rarity doesn't bring us closer to the truth.



I don't think either type can be considered more desirable than the other since the discrediting of the at least partially put-together Weissinger grouping (with the grey background type).

While it's true there is no proof that either type are fakes, nor has there in all these years been any proof they are wartime (although they may be). They're all just nice unworn UV light-negative cloth patches.

At the current level of evidence, acceptance of these cloth patches as high-priced originals has to be one of the biggest leaps of faith in the hobby. At best, it's speculative based on the hope that more verifiable evidence will appear sometime in the 21st century.

Best regards,
---Norm
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I totally agree with Norm's assessment!
As the years go by, more and more photos from newly released archives and veteran sources are discovered, maybe the long search for iron clad documentation might finally be over!
This was the case with the "Metz 1944" cuffband back decades ago when the photo of the commanding general wearing one was uncovered.
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