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Kriegsmarine Clock Eagle?
Old 12-20-2013, 09:52 PM   #1
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Default Kriegsmarine Clock Eagle?

Anyone want to comment on the credibility of this eagle being the real thing? I've not seen this "type" before on any known originals before.

http://www.ulricofengland.com/index....ml829pnasccxo0
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Kriegsmarine eagle
Old 12-21-2013, 03:09 PM   #2
glaser
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Default Kriegsmarine eagle

This is the standard eagle on the Kieniger & Obergfell brass clock
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KRIEGSMARINE, MPA, Marine Peil Abteilung, MPHS Marine Peil Hauptstelle Flandern Brügge, BELGIUM, Operation RAMROD 934, Feldpostnr 22661
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Old 12-21-2013, 03:33 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by glaser View Post
This is the standard eagle on the Kieniger & Obergfell brass clock
Don't think so....

Compare the structure of the upper wing and the number of feathers. The dial is also perfect with no age or wear. It is a reproduction IMO.

See discussion on German Clock Forum

http://germanwatch.proboards.com/thr...-clock?page=38

Last edited by 11C; 12-21-2013 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 12-21-2013, 04:26 PM   #4
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I based my opinion on the description and pictures in the book of KONRAD KNIRIM (1998) page 104, for me it is OK
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Old 12-21-2013, 04:39 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by glaser View Post
I based my opinion on the description and pictures in the book of KONRAD KNIRIM (1998) page 104, for me it is OK
We have different Knirim books I guess, because pages 182 thru 185 show originial clocks with different feather patterns for the Kieninger & Obergfell clocks. In fact, nowhere in my book does that feather pattern show up at all.
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Old 12-21-2013, 04:45 PM   #6
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My book is Militaruhren Military Timepieces, 150 Years Watches and Cocks of German Forces, Konrad Knirim, 2002
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Old 12-21-2013, 06:20 PM   #7
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Well, my reference book on KM K&O ships clocks should be really published...
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Old 12-22-2013, 12:11 PM   #8
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It seems that this subject is a minefield if i read the german watch forum well,....but what would you aspect?? every part of the german army has been replicated and especially these valuable things like ship clocks!! What are the most important things if you are looking for a original piece??? I'm still lurking for a untouched original specimen for a decent price not the prices that Url England asked,....that's totally insane for a "nice looking" fake Yes AFX2000 that would be a good step in the right direction
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Old 12-22-2013, 01:08 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by 48RMC View Post
It seems that this subject is a minefield if i read the german watch forum well,....but what would you aspect?? every part of the german army has been replicated and especially these valuable things like ship clocks!! What are the most important things if you are looking for a original piece??? I'm still lurking for a untouched original specimen for a decent price not the prices that Url England asked,....that's totally insane for a "nice looking" fake Yes AFX2000 that would be a good step in the right direction
The most important thing with an original clock is the dial IMO. If the dial is a fake, the whole clock is compromised, especially when you are discussing KM clocks. These clocks were made for different reasons. The luftwaffe had a similar clock..... different eagle. The clock was also marked differently for different theaters of war. The history of the clock is read in the dial and the numbers. They tell the age, location and branch of service. You fake the dial, you fake the clock. I could accept that perhaps a part was worn and had to be replaced or the glass was broken and needed to be changed, but when you "change" the dial, you devalue the clock. The latest batch of these fakes use clocks of different vintages, stamped incorrectly with the wrong faunts and the wrong eagles patterns and then have the absure notion that they are worth more money because of their "new" condition. These clocks are not restored.............................THEY ARE FAKED..........

It really is time for your new reference afx20000. It's time to let the dealers know how they are being duped by this new fake dial. I contacted UlRIC, but they seemed unconcerned because there is no written support to suggest that they have anything but a perfect example of a couple of unissued clocks in their possession. Nobody with any "education" about these clocks would be stupid enough to purchaes those frauds at those ridiculous prices. Somebody needs to get a grip on this before all the real clocks will be devalued by the amount of fakes out there. We've seen this with SS Honor rings, Knights' Crosses, Anti-Partisan badges, and most TR items of significant value. The sooner these frauds are exposed, the better is will be for all the true collectors of history.
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Old 12-22-2013, 08:09 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11C View Post
Don't think so....

Compare the structure of the upper wing and the number of feathers. The dial is also perfect with no age or wear. It is a reproduction IMO.

See discussion on German Clock Forum

http://germanwatch.proboards.com/thr...-clock?page=38
i have one of these in near mint, original condition, my eagle is different to the one shown on the ulric clocks, as pointed out the wing structure is totally different.
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Old 12-22-2013, 09:09 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparks View Post
i have one of these in near mint, original condition, my eagle is different to the one shown on the ulric clocks, as pointed out the wing structure is totally different.
There are three different know eagle patterns or generations documented in the last 74 years. The "Ulric" pattern is not one of them.
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Old 12-23-2013, 04:14 PM   #12
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deleted re-post

Last edited by 11C; 12-23-2013 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 12-24-2013, 06:00 AM   #13
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Interesting topic.

It looks like the eagle at the "Ulric clock" is different from the eagle in the Knirim book and 'fortunately' also different then the eagle om my own clock.
The difference is that the upper part of the wing at the Ulrick clock consists of only one feather and with the "original" eagles the upper wing part is divided in three feathers.
The dial of the Ulric clock does look very new without any patina or so, but I do think that the dial is original but maybe machine polished and applied with new eagle?
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Old 12-24-2013, 09:53 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reinoudmilitary View Post
Interesting topic.

It looks like the eagle at the "Ulric clock" is different from the eagle in the Knirim book and 'fortunately' also different then the eagle om my own clock.
The difference is that the upper part of the wing at the Ulrick clock consists of only one feather and with the "original" eagles the upper wing part is divided in three feathers.
The dial of the Ulric clock does look very new without any patina or so, but I do think that the dial is original but maybe machine polished and applied with new eagle?
These "new" eagles started to appear a little over two years ago. (correct me if I'm wrong Florian) They are NOT seen in any literature prior to that time. They are always on a new, freshly silvered dial. The fraud requires a clock without damage as well. The clocks, to this point, are all in "mint" condition. The number fonts are incorrect as well. The letters M and N also show differences when compared with the early or late numbers added. Early numbered dials have appeared on later clocks and vise versa with incorrectly addressed number fonts. Ulrick has two of these clocks from different periods with the same markings. Make no mistake, these are fake dials on mostly "parts" clocks. Greed seems to be the only saving grace in this whole mess. If the dials were "aged" and used on correct period clocks, with the usual damage, they might have gone un-noticed for awhile longer. You will see more and more of these showing up at major shows now. I was told that a "perfect" one was recently sold at the MAX show this past year by a well known dealer. The dealer network appears to be the fence for most of these new clocks., although I have see one pass through auction this year. I seriously doubt that you will see one of these sold by a private collector, unless he has had the misfortune to have purchased it from a dealer within the last few years.

Last edited by 11C; 12-24-2013 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 01-12-2014, 06:01 AM   #15
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An interesting topic indeed and one I would hope the moderators would pin to expose these clocks and the fraudsters who pedal them.

One of the major culprits in the UK is a Scottish trader who sells his fake and made up Kriegsmarine and Imperial Navy clocks at the War and Peace Revival in Kent and at the large antique fairs such as Newark and Ardingly. His work includes fake dials of course, but also fake (not just replacement) movements, with strong evidence to suggest that even the cases are being manufactured and aged. As we know, these clocks now appear on eBay and at some of the major auction houses in the UK.

Here is one of the fake eagles.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Fake clock (42).JPG (111.9 KB, 662 views)

Last edited by lanners55; 01-12-2014 at 06:07 AM.
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