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Old 07-09-2012, 09:11 PM   #61
BobI
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Thanks Guys, always fun to be here! Well, I spoke to my friend Kim who vet purchased one of these three months ago. I have one without the emblem, it was broken when I received it that was vet purchased.
Trust me, as many of you know, I do a pretty good job of keeping fakes off my site. So, I totally understand how vets end up with fakes. Whether they were made in semi-recent times or 1945, I do understand this "stuff".
The reason Ron is not responding is because those who have done this for 40 years plus have no question as to their authenticity. TW is well respected, perhaps one of you should ask his opinion on these?
Lastly, some of the new, young collectors have incredible knowledge and have done outstanding research on our treasures. However, there is still miss-information out there from some of the newer guys that are authoritive in their areas.
We can agree to disagree, no reason to fight but these knives are real.
Best Wishes,
Bob
PS- I have never seen one as was alluded to earlier that they "must" have rectangular holes to fit the diamond prongs through. Since these were not factory modified I can see this as being a "possibility" but by no means the rule.
PPS- I know my comments will not be well recepted so I said what I need to and will not return to beat a dead horse.
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Old 07-10-2012, 02:54 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobI View Post
Thanks Guys, always fun to be here! Well, I spoke to my friend Kim who vet purchased one of these three months ago. I have one without the emblem, it was broken when I received it that was vet purchased.
Trust me, as many of you know, I do a pretty good job of keeping fakes off my site. So, I totally understand how vets end up with fakes. Whether they were made in semi-recent times or 1945, I do understand this "stuff".
The reason Ron is not responding is because those who have done this for 40 years plus have no question as to their authenticity. TW is well respected, perhaps one of you should ask his opinion on these?
Lastly, some of the new, young collectors have incredible knowledge and have done outstanding research on our treasures. However, there is still miss-information out there from some of the newer guys that are authoritive in their areas.
We can agree to disagree, no reason to fight but these knives are real.
Best Wishes,
Bob
PS- I have never seen one as was alluded to earlier that they "must" have rectangular holes to fit the diamond prongs through. Since these were not factory modified I can see this as being a "possibility" but by no means the rule.
PPS- I know my comments will not be well recepted so I said what I need to and will not return to beat a dead horse.
Bob, The one who made the following statements (it was not me): .......“buying directly from the veterans I have found over a dozen of these knives. What must be stated is that ALL were in super, unissued condition, so whether or not they were ever issued or sold in Germany to the HJ (I don't believe these would have been limited to the DJ) is another question.” ....... also stated: “I tend to not worry about the rivet holding the spring in the scabbard. I am more concerned about the shape of the hole in the scabbard for the diamond prongs (its a rectangular punched hole, not a round drilled hole as seen in the fake ones).......” That was in 2007, and I did not question that he believed in the correctness of his statements.

With your currently stated experience with them being: “I have one without the emblem, it was broken when I received it that was vet purchased.”...... and ......... “Well, I spoke to my friend Kim who vet purchased one of these three months ago.” ......... “I have never seen one as was alluded to earlier that they "must" have rectangular holes to fit the diamond prongs through. Since these were not factory modified I can see this as being a "possibility" but by no means the rule.”..........

Because that contradicts what the first set of statements said - especially as it related to the drilled holes seen in the fake ones he cited.

So are you saying that they are “real” because they physically exist and we can see them?? (“We can agree to disagree, no reason to fight but these knives are real.”.) Or do you have some prior experiences with them that was omitted? Evidence, physical proof, or whatever that the small knives with the emblems are completely original/genuine pre-1945 period artifacts - no matter how they are put together? Fred
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Old 07-10-2012, 04:40 AM   #63
Garry M.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobI View Post
.. Lastly, some of the new, young collectors have incredible knowledge and have done outstanding research on our treasures. However, there is still miss-information out there from some of the newer guys that are authoritive in their areas.
I don't know what you mean by 'misinformation'. This type of thing perhaps?

http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f31...-history-6650/

Mr Wittmann (hardly what you would call young of course) doesn't know it but he is telling his potential customers a lie. He is telling them that the HJ knife was around before 1933. Specifically, that his example dates to the late 1920s. Faulty research (if he bothered to even look at a book in the first place which I must put in severe doubt), led him to reach that conclusion. Are there any comments from Ron and Bob about that? No. Do you see why people are getting a tad peeved?

Anyway, sorry for the slight 'derail'. I'm looking forward to responses to Fred's excellent post.

Last edited by Garry M.; 07-10-2012 at 05:35 AM. Reason: expanded the penultimate paragraph
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Old 07-11-2012, 11:12 AM   #64
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Ooops! I'd mistakenly said the gdc reference gallery included the small knife. It doesn't; must've been looking at another 'site - my apologies to all.. Dw
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Old 07-12-2012, 07:37 PM   #65
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Hi Guys!
Well, I said I would not but I guess one more response.
1. I seem to collect in phases over the years. I am very burnt out on HJ knives, unless they are "minty" with the motto! Anyway, I quickly glanced at TW list, I see one he calls 1927-1929 issue because of the TM on it. I have not studied well the Eickhorn TMs but if he has a piece that is unaltered and has a TM from this time period I can see why he would draw such a conclusion.
2. Secondly, I can't comment on Ron's observations over the years. All I can speak of is my own.
3. On my experience I can tell many stories of APBs, Gold TDS, and the 25 Year SS medal. My experiences from others has been different. Some variations I was comfortable with, my friends were not. Thanks to the Internet and the ability to debate and share quickly we know all of what we discussed are real. These knives are another example, they are real. If you don't like them don't buy one.
4. For those of you who do not believe them, please share with us your experience collecting as far as time and what you have owned.
5. I have had 27 returns in 10 years which is well under 1% of what I have sold. On the rare occasion someone disputes something on my site, you guys come to my rescue which seems to only happen with a couple of dealers. I am grateful for that! I would not lie to you or argue for their originality if I were not certain of it myself!
Best Wishes,
Bob
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Old 07-13-2012, 06:02 AM   #66
Garry M.
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Oh come on Sir.. An unaltered late 1920s HJ knife? Should we really be prepared to afford people the right to say just whatever they want - regardless of how ludicrous the suggestion is? I'm reminded of Loretta:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

You want to know how much 'experience' is arguing against your opinion? I have said it before but experience is relative. If someone does something wrong for 40 years it shows only that he is experienced in getting something wrong. I've not heard of you before and you may well be very knowledgeable about other things but it is clear that you don't know enough about these 'DJ' knives to make a qualified judgement and to legitimise them. Your opinion of the 'DJ' knife is clearly not based on any research you have conducted yourself. Rather, it appears to be the result of accepting the opinions of those whom you respect or whose opinions you personally hold to be true. Less charitable souls might even say that dealers have an interest in everything being 'real' and that this could be a determining factor in any value judgements they make. In short, on this knife you don't yourself have the 'experience' you demand from me and others on this thread.

I don't have decades of experience but what I can do is read German and I am always searching for period resources in order to tie up what I see as loose-ends. Being solely interested in the Hitler Youth movement I see these 'DJ' knives as being one of those loose-ends and I feel sure that they will eventually disappear quietly from dealers' inventories in the same way that the ridiculous 'BDM' knife did.
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Old 07-13-2012, 11:00 AM   #67
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This is a good illustration of mis-information and missing the meaning of what is written. Tom Wittmann said that this STYLE Eickhorn Trademark originated in the 1927 to 1929 period, NOT what period the HJ Knife was manufactured.
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Old 07-13-2012, 11:18 AM   #68
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"This is a good illustration of mis-information and missing the meaning of what is written. Tom Wittmann said that this STYLE Eickhorn Trademark originated in the 1927 to 1929 period, NOT what period the HJ Knife was manufactured."


Yes Ron, mis-information continues to be spread by you.

What is Tom saying here?

"This early example proves that the Hitler Youth knife was made prior to the Nazis coming to power in 1933."

This is the opening sentence!

HYK #33490C Ultra-Early Hitler Youth Knife – Carl Eickhorn
This early example proves that the Hitler Youth knife was made prior to the Nazis coming to power in 1933. The trademark on this example comes from the late twenties. The rest of the piece also reflects very early construction. The hilt is, of course, of solid steel with good nickel plating. The plating shows some age here and there but the pommel is still quite good as are the front and back plates. The crossguard and quillon have some plating loss but not too bad. The grip plates are very early wood or Bakelite, I can’t be sure. The checkering is the closet grain pattern that you will see on a Hitler Youth knife. These grip plates are both in perfect condition and are retained by solid nickel rivets having dressed heads on the obverse. The grip insignia wiggles nicely and has perfect enamel. The bright colors of red, white, gold and black swastika look great against these quality grip plates. The scabbard is a steel tube type version which is not as pointy as the later pieces. The original paint shows quite a bit of spidering and some wear around the bottom tip as they normally do. Looking inside there are two runners, both of which appear to be aluminum and they and they are the type without the covering over the surfaces. The original leather hanger is still in fine supple condition and is complete with the small grip retainer loop and working snap. The blade of this example is the very early type having no ricasso. It has the motto on the obverse which is still very visible. This motto has about 50-60% of the original darkening still in the backgrounds. Unfortunately the blade has turned fairly gray but at least there is no violent sharpening in the surfaces. The reverse of the blade is extremely interesting as it is stamped with the single oval having a serrated tail seated squirrel inside. This oval trademark traces back to about the 1927 to 1929 period. Beneath the logo is the location city, “Solingen” and “Ges. Geschützt”. It is also interesting to note that the firm’s name of Carl Eickhorn is not included with the logo. I don’t know whether this means anything or not. Perhaps the initial production run was ordered without a factory name? The original leather blade washer is in place. A very interesting Hitler Youth knife here and a must for the serious HJ collector. $1395

Regards

Russ

Last edited by RussellM; 07-13-2012 at 11:43 AM. Reason: to add the price
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Old 07-13-2012, 11:19 AM   #69
Garry M.
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Read it properly Mr Weinand. What is he telling his prospective customer about the knife?

Precisely, that the pattern of HJ he is selling there was around prior to January 30th 1933. The whole pitch is designed to tell that customer that he is looking at a very special, very early knife. Pricetag? Why is that high? Come on.... Misinformation??

So, would it be too much to ask to discuss your misinformation with the 'DJ' knife then? Or for that matter the 'BDM' knife? Don't lecture me. You have sold these in the past too. Where was your proof that what you were selling was as described to the customer? Where was your sense of history and your customer care?
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Old 07-13-2012, 11:32 AM   #70
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Bob is also selling one of the "rare" DJ knives, the same type as shown at the start of the thread. And also a "plain "DJ" knife as well. Seems to be all dealers and Ron, the collector, on this thread who support these. Where are the collectors? Trying to get their money back I suppose, because the sellers can't prove anything.

Length of experience in collecting is rubbish. It all depends on what you do with the time. Real collectors research, not blindly follow like sheep and suck up what they're being told.

Also, the time period these dealers go back to, includes Atwood and we all know what he was doing.

Regards

Russ
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Old 07-13-2012, 12:13 PM   #71
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And so Ron read these latest posts and chose again to not answer any of the valid questions that have been posed.

Ron also told us that we were spreading mis-information.

However, it was not us, it was him as can be clearly seen above.

Tom Wittmann now believes the HJ knife was made prior to the Nazi's coming to power in 1933.

Ron believes these rare "DJ" knives are genuine, as does Bob Iqbal.

And Tom Johnson just sold an HJ knife with a green diamond as genuine but un-attributed. And emblazened on his website is:

"We wrote the books on German Edged Weapons!". And pictured on the back of one these books is Atwood.

Time to wake up guys and start asking questions and doing your own research!

Regards

Russ
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Old 07-13-2012, 01:52 PM   #72
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just to squeeze a few extra words in edge-wise as I started this thread:

a) my knife is alu hilted not nickel for what that's worth, and,
b) it seems no one's yet deigned to answer johnson's point on the HJ 'site that there are some or many well-known and widely-accepted - but *undocumented* - items from the pre-45 era.

on b), I realize the import of keeping on point here, but no matter TJ's understandable interest in selling all he can, his thinking in the wider frame appears to ring true. and if not, why not?

the notion of applying badges to existing stock, per ron, seems perfectly logical albeit as yet unproven.

cheers, dw
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Old 07-13-2012, 02:32 PM   #73
Garry M.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inimicus View Post
it seems no one's yet deigned to answer johnson's point on the HJ 'site that there are some or many well-known and widely-accepted - but *undocumented* - items from the pre-45 era.
Mr Johnson's comments are here: http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f31....html#post3182


The problem with discussions like this one (here on WAF) is that people have agendas. As you can see, I and others are being accused of spreading misinformation by the very people who have been selling these odd little knives as 'DJ' and 'BDM' for years despite not having the slightest idea what they are.

Those who have followed previous discussions on these knives will see, I hope, that 'our' problem with these knives is the way dealers have described and sold them in the past and are still selling them. No one doubts that Mr Weinand received some from vets and that the constituent parts Mr Johnson mentions in the thread on the HJ forum are likely to have been produced for some, as yet unknown, reason in Germany. But, to invent a purpose for the knives and then market them as ultra-rare issue items for the DJ and BDM is cynical and people should not be allowed to get away with it. If dealers like Weinand, Johnson et al are prepared to continue marketing these knives then they should also be prepared to answer the uncomfortable questions from those who smell a rat. They might also stop calling our opinions 'misinformation'. That word is in my opinion nothing more than a euphemism for 'Go away! Things were working out just fine for us before you turned up!'
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:38 PM   #74
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thanks garry for that and the link, as well.

btw one very well-known & respected dealer PMd me to say the knife with badge is real. but he won't pipe up in b/c he suspects - rightly, I believe - that he'll be torn to bits as purely self-serving.

it strikes me sad, and in a way scary, that dealers cannot voice opinions in the current environment. many of them are very well-versed not only in the mementos but the history, zeitgeist, regs etc. it's as tho their views are invalidated b/c they're dealers and should keep their yaps shut. and perhaps they're right: doing otherwise has proven t/b quite the thankless task hasn't it.

further, it's perplexing from the logical POV. after all we're talking about a real small # of knives here. what's really at stake? why the Sturm und Drang? neither side's able to prove it's thesis. I'd guess barefully a handful or two of the knives sell over a year's time, and for a thou or less.

we're not talking dedicated, period-cased HJ leader's daggers in gold here. these lil'uns represent a tiny fraction of what 'the dagger kings' sell annually. their reps were hardly made, and will not be lost on their account.

of course, if the non-believers have a wider charge to make about the kings' accuracy in describing their wares (that is, that much more of their stock beyond the little knives is questionable), then perhaps the waf membership would appreciate hearing it.

I mean, the anger seen here is of the near-palpable variety. cynics might even be excused for wondering whether dealers alone have agendas....

gladly, tho, in none of the blistering fusillades (some of which have lurched perilously close to accusations of fraud), have we heard of a single dealer not refunding the buyers' money. maybe, as some state, they're too embarrassed to admit they'd been gulled and are busy returning the knives. but it's just as possible they're well and truly happy with them.

like so many aspects of this rancorous topic, it's ... speculative.

good weekend all. now, take a breather and beat the bushes for militaria!

dw
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Old 07-13-2012, 11:49 PM   #75
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I do not believe in the legitimacy of the green enameld pieces. 2. In nearly all cases of "fakes" that hit the market they can be traced back to a single source. I would love to see your research to prove these are fake.

In Tom's description "This oval trademark traces back to about the 1927 to 1929 period", I read it as Tom describing the TM and using it to date the knife, let me know if there is an important adjective I am missing. I like to think my 14 years of advanced education will allow me to interpret this properly but I guess I may need some help.

When legitimate research shows these as fake I will be very happy to video tape the destruction of the one I own.

Best Wishes,
Bob
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