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Info about Lafayette Pool and his 258 'kills' needed
Old 04-28-2003, 01:59 AM   #1
Wassermann
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Default Info about Lafayette Pool and his 258 'kills' needed

Hi folks,

While searching for non-German tank aces of WWII I stumbled right away across the name Lafayette Pool. His score goes up to 258 kills in ~80 days following June 44 in Normandy. I was getting 'some' information thru google, but in general you won't to much on the net.

My question is, how to read this 258 kills? Wittmann with 141 kills and Carius with somthing of 150-200 kills are relativly well documented. Their kills actually mean 'tanks'. With Pool I found the information that in these 258 kills are 3 Panthers and some Kübelwagen (jeeps) - but that's it on further information about the kills.

What vehicles were counted in the American system as kills - obviously more than only tanks??? I was joking around with a friend about Pool being the one who drove his tank over the bike stand at the Eiffel-tower But no jokes about dead people and no offence.

Can somebody enlighten me over here - please?!?

Regards
Uwe
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Re: Info about Lafayette Pool and his 258 'kills' needed
Old 04-30-2003, 02:00 PM   #2
Attila
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Default Re: Info about Lafayette Pool and his 258 'kills' needed

I've found only this about him http://www.panzerlexikon.de/bio/pool/pool.htm

Hope it helps a bit
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Old 04-30-2003, 02:45 PM   #3
Greg
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See this link for a detailed article on Pool from the Journal of Military Ordnance.

http://www.3ad.org/wwii_heroes/pool_..._ordnance1.htm

Lots of details about Pool's career, with sources cited. It still doesn't say what counted as "vehicles" in his record of 258 destroyed.

A side note - Pool Hall at the US Army Armor Center at Ft Knox, KY is named for Lafayette Pool. Pool Hall houses the sophisticated tank driver trainers for the M1, M1A2, and M1A2 SEP tanks.

Regards,
Greg
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Old 04-30-2003, 11:23 PM   #4
Matt L
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Pool's score HAD to include every target his tank destroyed- the Panzerwaffe probably didn't even have 258 tanks in Normandy during those 80 days. I'd expect that tanks, trucks, Kuebelwagen, motorcycles would be included- perhaps even bicycles if they were Kradmelder. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the US system included anti-tank guns, bunkers or other targets a tank might destroy too.

I wonder if they counted partial kills like the Allied air forces did- perhaps some of his kills are combined.

Matt
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Old 05-05-2003, 03:04 AM   #5
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it had to include non tank stuff as if it was JUST tanks then i think he would be alot more famous also i wonder what wittmans score would be if you included EVERYTHING he destroyed!!!
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Old 05-12-2003, 06:25 PM   #6
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Hi,
Do not forget Allied tanks his total may contain a few as well ,
Merdock
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Old 05-21-2003, 09:51 AM   #7
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Thanks everybody for their time and effort. I will keep looking for some information about the American kill system and -should there be some interest- can post the info here.

Regards
Uwe
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:27 PM   #8
Edward L. Hsiao
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Gentlemen,

I think Pool's kills contains plenty of shared kills too!


Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao
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Old 04-13-2017, 07:33 PM   #9
djpool
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wassermann View Post
Hi folks,

While searching for non-German tank aces of WWII I stumbled right away across the name Lafayette Pool. His score goes up to 258 kills in ~80 days following June 44 in Normandy. I was getting 'some' information thru google, but in general you won't to much on the net.

My question is, how to read this 258 kills? Wittmann with 141 kills and Carius with somthing of 150-200 kills are relativly well documented. Their kills actually mean 'tanks'. With Pool I found the information that in these 258 kills are 3 Panthers and some Kübelwagen (jeeps) - but that's it on further information about the kills.

What vehicles were counted in the American system as kills - obviously more than only tanks??? I was joking around with a friend about Pool being the one who drove his tank over the bike stand at the Eiffel-tower But no jokes about dead people and no offence.

Can somebody enlighten me over here - please?!?

Regards
Uwe
I think he was credited with 12 enemy tanks and 258 armored vehicles which includes trucks, half tracks etc. Somehow I'm related to him, though I've never met him. My dad worked with his widow to try to upgrade his DSC to a MOH. It was rejected. I think I have the paperwork somewhere. I don't remember any detailed accounting of his kills in the packet. Regards Jim
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Old 04-14-2017, 04:54 PM   #10
Edward L. Hsiao
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Gentlemen,

In my opinion I don't think Pool got all these German vehicles all by himself within 80 days. He might had plenty of help from other US tanks. 258 'kills' just won't do for one Sherman tank.

Sincerely,


Edward L. Hsiao
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Old 04-14-2017, 09:48 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward L. Hsiao View Post
Gentlemen,

In my opinion I don't think Pool got all these German vehicles all by himself within 80 days. He might had plenty of help from other US tanks. 258 'kills' just won't do for one Sherman tank.

Sincerely,


Edward L. Hsiao
Actually all the statements from the TF commander and others relate an estimated figure of 275 enemy vehicles of all types destroyed, 250 POWs and 1000 killed or wounded enemy troops by Pools tank alone. The number of enemy tanks and assault guns doesn't appear to be more than a dozen. Don't forget a lot of Pools Kills occurred as the Germans were being trapped in Falaise and during the rout that followed. Jim
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:38 AM   #12
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I have the file my father put together and sent to Congress and the Army to reconsider Lafayette Pool for the Medal of Honor. My father contacted Pfc. Bertram Close the last surviving member of Pools crew in February of 2000. Pfc. Close was the bow gunner/assistant driver of “In the Mood”.
The number of 258 enemy vehicles destroyed, 250 POWs taken and 1000 enemy killed or wounded was first reported in Yank magazine. Pfc. Close has no idea where those numbers came from. He along with T/5 Wilbert Richards (driver) were interviewed and provided no such numbers. The only numbers Pfc. Close could confirm was “In the Mood” was the lead tank for the TF on at least 21 occasions. He went on to say that every attack didn’t mean they actually engaged the enemy. Pfc. Close believes the numbers in Yank were provided by LTC. Richardson the TF commander.
Evidently no one kept any records of kills. Pfc. Close can confirm that “In the Mood” destroyed enemy tanks, equipment and personnel but how many, he doesn’t know. He did recall destroying a column of horse drawn artillery and wagons outside Mons Belgium.
I dug through the files and tried to capture any actions were numbers were actually reported. These numbers came from a variety of sources to include eye witness accounts, after action reports etc. I only included key events. So here is what I found out:

26 June 1944: 3AD moves to assembly area (Le Oubeaux).
28 June 1944: CCA which Pool belonged to is formed.
32 Armd regt Col. Boudinot
TF X LTC. Doan
3-32 Armor Bn LTC Richardson
Item Company CPT. Benz (KIA 27 Aug) This was Pools Company.
29 June 1944: CCA attacks Villers Fossard and Le forge. Pools tank knocked out by panzerfaust.
13 August 1944: Major battle near crossroads along axis Le Ribay to Javon. Pools tank credited with an estimated 250 enemy dead.
27 August 1944: Pool destroys two tanks (Panthers) at Coulommiers.
29 August to 31 August 1944: In Pools citation for DSC his tank is credited with destroying four tanks (two Panthers, two unknown type, possible assault guns), three AT guns, approximately 50 unarmored enemy vehicles and a large number of enemy killed or wounded. These actions occurred during the pursuit and crossing of the Aisne river.
4 September 1944: During actions around Namur and Charleroi Pools tank destroys one Stug III and 15 other vehicles believed to be from the 17SS Division.
10 September 1944: During the night and morning of 10-11 September Pool engages SS troops near Dison and destroys six Sdkfz. 251 halftracks, One Panther tank, plus a number of troops.
19 September 1944: Pools tank knocked out. Pool wounded and out of the war.

There is a statement from a Captain Mangan, who only witnessed Pools actions from 21 Aug to 19 September, that credits Pool with 275 enemy vehicles destroyed, took 250 POWs and Killed or wounded 1000 of the enemy. However he states that the crew didn’t keep any records and that those figures were compiled by interviewing other witnesses (not named) to include the crew. Remember what PFC. Close said.
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Old 04-20-2017, 01:21 AM   #13
Edward L. Hsiao
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Gentlemen,

Well fellows of the forum, this is your chance say your opinion about Lafayette Pool and his kills. I already said mine.

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao
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