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Old 12-07-2017, 12:14 AM   #586
Marc verstraete
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I’m not wasting more time on this.
In these days I was all over Europe and some eastern countries. I, and other collectors would have noticed Film studio stamps!
Stamps where the only thing we had to identify something in these days!
Look what happens with the Stadni film stamps. Since such a stamp was prove of a genuine item, (in the 80’s) these stamps where faked starting in the 90’s!!!
There are nowadays more Stadni film stamped items on the marked than there was stock in the film studio!!
These “pink” camos are post war. End of story.
That’s all folks …
Marc
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:37 AM   #587
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I think some of us are still falling into what i think is "the trap" that you've seen everything that was ever made or every pattern. The benefit of us being in 2017 is that we can look back now even easier with patterns and look at history from then not now as well, and employ cross referencing....just my 2 cents. I think the very simple answer of this is a) east west security during the cold war, b) $ cross border and c) potential personal damage in various offical forms as per a, b especially in government form. There was indeed all kinds of stuff coming in and out, i know many people around my area for example "in the know" who told me at least from their own wars experience from the arms trade (where some ports were agreed to be used by both sides east-west and commerical players even both at once during the cold war as organised windows- for all the proxy wars etc- the funniest thing is arms embargos from countris that also send you things to test even though they have an embargo) and also the lower "people level" contraband trade in and out of the west and east and people now older people know where it was coming through and how: Booze, Jeans, Music, clothes etc....so i say again: there were indeed all sorts of slippery trucks full of all sorts and quantities of slippery stuff knowingly coming back and fourth FOR YEARS and YEARS and in a slippery fashion- would a few hundred smocks be hard to bring in? NOPE, and back then the methods for checking vehicles was even less thorough than today, however this was organised anyhow on a guard level because their pay was crap on both sides.....and with respect to Belgium (which i think has nothing to do with these smocks) Rhodesia traded plane loads of meat for money and other things etc, so business with Belgium was not so complicated to play with.

P

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4 questions /no answers
Old 12-07-2017, 08:09 AM   #588
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Default 4 questions /no answers

Lets just set aside the construction of these pinkies , the "real problem is again where did they originate from ? who made them ? who brought them to the West? how did the stampings get into the smocks ? and who washed them ? answer any one of the above and that will end 40 years of arguing as to whether they are good or bad , if you go for the argument of German construction versus foreign construction ( which sometimes seems to be the new alibi for questionable pieces in this generation ) its the dog chasing its own tale . The above lack of answers for these smocks comes down to No answers hence No Value ! Don't you believers in Pinkies find it odd that no one can answer any of the above conclusively after all this time ? come on ??? All the majors finds in collecting have roots ,i.e. Dachau for insignia i.e.cased medals from Schloss Klessheim , then we have champagne decals or tuxedo breast badges , Really ?
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:20 AM   #589
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Those are exactly the questions that need to be asked, as I stated. I am frankly surprised we still don't know at least some of these answers if so many people have had extended conversations with the people who brought them to the West.

I was in Russia and the Soviet Union for good chunks of time in the 1980's-1990's, and bought some very nice stuff from museums - it was a completely normal practice. They would give you antiquities customs forms when you bought items, and I brought seabags of the stuff back.

I have owned a number of these smocks, and like Nutmeg have one I kept for myself. None of mine have stamps, and if you read earlier threads only some of them were stamped - I don't know why.

Here's something to ponder: If stamping original SS items with these inventory markings to make the fakes acceptable was the sneaky dealer tactic, why didn't they stamp ALL the smocks? Doesn't make much sense to destroy original items with bogus stamps if you aren't going to stamp ALL your junk inventory.

Maybe George Peterson only knows when he got them, and has no direct (or credible indirect) knowledge of the find. Maybe Floch got them from a middle man. If we're patient, we'll get our answers but have to ask the right questions. Whoever talks with Floch, I wouldn't ask him if they are real - I'd ask everything he knew about their origins and path from point of acquisition to collector.

s/f Robert
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:18 PM   #590
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Exactly.....the questioning technique itself is very important.....

P
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:34 PM   #591
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Pete ,

You should get in your pyramid time machine and go back with some Levis to the eastern block and do some horse trading for the answers.

owen
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:37 PM   #592
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Hahaha...how do you know im not writing from inside right now?

Can i buy my hat back from your floor?

P
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:09 PM   #593
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There one important aspect to this which everyone is overlooking. When I sent the researcher to Mosfilm and Belarus Film , the markings he shot pictures of in the studios were all 1940s dates and were similar in type to the pinks 1947 markings . Later studio markings are different. I have not seen any of these 40s markings so far on line, the studio markings I have seen are all later types, not the box type with a 1940s date. In 1980 one would have to penetrate the vaults of these Soviet studios to even see what these markings looked like to imitate them. Do you really think it would be worthwhile to sneak into the Soviet Union just to get that detail correct when pretty much else anything would do? I doubt it would be worth the risk. And again these markings were only discovered in the last few years in non pink smocks coming from different sources. I can't imagine fakers planting these in other uniforms planning to document their trickery 35 years in the future. What would be the point since all the smocks had been sold decades before. IMO the markings are the smoking gun.






Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertE View Post
Those are exactly the questions that need to be asked, as I stated. I am frankly surprised we still don't know at least some of these answers if so many people have had extended conversations with the people who brought them to the West.

I was in Russia and the Soviet Union for good chunks of time in the 1980's-1990's, and bought some very nice stuff from museums - it was a completely normal practice. They would give you antiquities customs forms when you bought items, and I brought seabags of the stuff back.

I have owned a number of these smocks, and like Nutmeg have one I kept for myself. None of mine have stamps, and if you read earlier threads only some of them were stamped - I don't know why.

Here's something to ponder: If stamping original SS items with these inventory markings to make the fakes acceptable was the sneaky dealer tactic, why didn't they stamp ALL the smocks? Doesn't make much sense to destroy original items with bogus stamps if you aren't going to stamp ALL your junk inventory.

Maybe George Peterson only knows when he got them, and has no direct (or credible indirect) knowledge of the find. Maybe Floch got them from a middle man. If we're patient, we'll get our answers but have to ask the right questions. Whoever talks with Floch, I wouldn't ask him if they are real - I'd ask everything he knew about their origins and path from point of acquisition to collector.

s/f Robert
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:58 PM   #594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc verstraete View Post
I’m not wasting more time on this.
In these days I was all over Europe and some eastern countries. I, and other collectors would have noticed Film studio stamps!
Stamps where the only thing we had to identify something in these days!
Look what happens with the Stadni film stamps. Since such a stamp was prove of a genuine item, (in the 80’s) these stamps where faked starting in the 90’s!!!
There are nowadays more Stadni film stamped items on the marked than there was stock in the film studio!!
These “pink” camos are post war. End of story.
That’s all folks …
Marc
Couldn't agree more.
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Old 12-07-2017, 02:15 PM   #595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimt View Post
Lets just set aside the construction of these pinkies , the "real problem is again where did they originate from ? who made them ? who brought them to the West? how did the stampings get into the smocks ? and who washed them ? answer any one of the above and that will end 40 years of arguing as to whether they are good or bad , if you go for the argument of German construction versus foreign construction ( which sometimes seems to be the new alibi for questionable pieces in this generation ) its the dog chasing its own tale . The above lack of answers for these smocks comes down to No answers hence No Value ! Don't you believers in Pinkies find it odd that no one can answer any of the above conclusively after all this time ? come on ??? All the majors finds in collecting have roots ,i.e. Dachau for insignia i.e.cased medals from Schloss Klessheim , then we have champagne decals or tuxedo breast badges , Really ?

Jim, one of the things that has intrigued me over all these years is the damaged Pink/ Brick smocks when they were found. The outside ones on the bales were badly soiled, water damaged and rodent infested/ chewed.

We have reports of this from reliable sources such as Bob Hritz, who had a rodent chewed sleeve at one stage if I have understood his posts correctly.

When fakers try to do this sort of damage i.e. moth holes, rodent damage and combat rips, they usually fail in more ways than one. The result is something not convincing when studied closely. Instead what they inflict looks artificial which is exactly what it is.

For example, when the SS "Champagne Runes" where in vogue, I never ever saw a well worn combat example that had been around the block a few times. Champagne Runes on SS helmets were always some degree of pristine.

While I agree fully with you that many of the questions you raise, have not been answered in the 40+ years since the Pink/ Brick smocks first appeared. This lack of information can not be cited as beyond doubt evidence of the smocks being fake. All it really proves, is the need for further investigation and study.

Sadly we may never solve this mystery one way or the other. However, Floch is an important key to unlocking the puzzle. Lets hope someone he trusts can get the information and report it when appropriate. In fact, is he not sitting on some paper-work to do with this acquisition at the time or do I have that wrong ?

With respect,

Chris
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:09 PM   #596
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Even Floch does not believe in these smocks. If he did he would have not sold them at a fraction of an original.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:16 PM   #597
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That's an assumption based on a sales price, not the item.

The brick smocks are different than German-made smocks - wouldn't be the first time someone let something go for a fraction of it's value because they didn't know what it was.

I'd still like to hear what Floch has to say about the questions posed above.

s/f Robert
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:16 PM   #598
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The reality is that Floch was a wholsaler who dealt in what Third Reich items he could get his hands on,

He understood back then when the Pink/ Brick smocks were found only too well that;

1/ you make when you buy in bulk not when you sell

2/ money is made from turnover not holding out for price.

3/ the faster you sell at margin, the quicker you get your money back to invest in something else.

4/ when you have a quantity of stock you have to price it to move which involves discounting if needed but do not discount to death.

Nothing has changed in such business which is why one meets more billionaires who own supermarkets than jewelry stores,

Chris
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:58 PM   #599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90th Light View Post
The reality is that Floch was a wholsaler who dealt in what Third Reich items he could get his hands on,

He understood back then when the Pink/ Brick smocks were found only too well that;

1/ you make when you buy in bulk not when you sell

2/ money is made from turnover not holding out for price.

3/ the faster you sell at margin, the quicker you get your money back to invest in something else.

4/ when you have a quantity of stock you have to price it to move which involves discounting if needed but do not discount to death.

Nothing has changed in such business which is why one meets more billionaires who own supermarkets than jewelry stores,

Chris
Seldom have I read such nonsense to justify a crooked dealers behavior. The fakers code right there. Konkin was a believer in those very principles. He sold stuff at too good to be true prices on the e-stand. The greedy could not wait to send their money to russia to get an amazing deal. In return, they received pieces of carpet and stuffed animals. If you believe in the smock that is one thing, but we don't need to hear a boatload of justifications why Floch sold cheap (besides the obvious reason-fake).
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:32 PM   #600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff V View Post
Seldom have I read such nonsense to justify a crooked dealers behavior. The fakers code right there. Konkin was a believer in those very principles. He sold stuff at too good to be true prices on the e-stand. The greedy could not wait to send their money to russia to get an amazing deal. In return, they received pieces of carpet and stuffed animals. If you believe in the smock that is one thing, but we don't need to hear a boatload of justifications why Floch sold cheap (besides the obvious reason-fake).
In 1973 when the NYC costume shops were falling on hard times I bought 700 Civil War Union. 58 caliber cartridge boxes in mint condition for $5.00 each. At that time the retail price was about $60.00+ . I blew them out to dealers at $30.00 each and took my profit of $17,500.00 immediately (which was about a years income for me at the time). The dealers who bought them took years to sell them all at full retail. I did the same with cavalry sabers, shell jackets and canteens I found there. I made for me what was huge profits right away got my money and bought an apartment and some collectibles I could not otherwise have afforded.

If Floch bought (hypothetically) 500 smocks for say $10.00 each. The Eastern block sellers got juicy cash for something they probably would have thrown out eventually and Floch if he sold them wholesale for about 150.00 each , made a quick 70k and moved on.

If I found 100 mint Wallonien Bevo cuffbands in a thrift shop for $10.00 each tomorrow I'd probably move them for about $3500.00 each (or less) rather then take the rest of my life trying to get the $6-7K they are currently asking.

Last edited by nutmeg; 12-07-2017 at 07:12 PM.
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