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Two Observers for review
Old 10-13-2019, 07:19 AM   #1
Alex Bolotnikov
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Default Two Observers for review

Two more birds landed last week. Deumer isn't rare but it took years to find one in good condition. And very nice transition Juncker piece with J1 eagle and thick wreath - first time I have one in my hands.
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File Type: jpg 368A8728.jpg (191.1 KB, 132 views)
File Type: jpg 368A8729.jpg (207.3 KB, 131 views)
File Type: jpg 368A8730.jpg (192.1 KB, 133 views)
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Old 10-13-2019, 08:28 AM   #2
e-maus
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Both nice badge. I never seen before this Juncker variant. Thx for sharing
Jacek
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Old 10-13-2019, 08:41 AM   #3
Lubo
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Now that is a cool Frankenstein, love it!
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Old 10-13-2019, 09:48 AM   #4
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Now that is a cool Frankenstein, love it!

Frankenstein? I don't think so
Jacek
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Old 10-13-2019, 10:34 AM   #5
Jean-Claude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Bolotnikov View Post
Two more birds landed last week. Deumer isn't rare but it took years to find one in good condition. And very nice transition Juncker piece with J1 eagle and thick wreath - first time I have one in my hands.
Wow!

You seem have a great talent for finding beautiful badges Alex! Congratulations on these 2 very nice Observers. I have seen a few of these "Frankenstein" (mixed parts) observers before in old threads but its not a common badge.

Going against the flow (again) but IMO these Observers with J1 eagles on J2 wreaths were produced AFTER J2 badges before the introduction of J3s, not BEFORE

Great stuff

JC
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File Type: jpg Juncker Observers - timeline.jpg (98.1 KB, 115 views)
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Old 10-13-2019, 11:19 AM   #6
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Great quality badges Alex!
The transitional Juncker is surely not common.
Lovely Deumer as well.
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Old 10-13-2019, 11:53 AM   #7
Sebastien T
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean-Claude View Post

Going against the flow (again) but IMO these Observers with J1 eagles on J2 wreaths were produced AFTER J2 badges before the introduction of J3s, not BEFORE
Your slightly wrong JC, they were made in parallele for a short period along the full J2 and then, the full J2s were produced alone forn a while... They are basically left over J1 eagles.... J3 wreath came a year after at least.

Great Badges Akex as usual I love the Deumer

Seb
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Old 10-13-2019, 03:24 PM   #8
Jean-Claude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastien T View Post
Your slightly wrong JC, they were made in parallele for a short period along the full J2 and then, the full J2s were produced alone forn a while... They are basically left over J1 eagles.... J3 wreath came a year after at least.

Great Badges Akex as usual I love the Deumer

Seb
Allo Seb

Who am I to argue with you but I think you are slightly wrong here...Your timeline should be correct in theory (using up J1 eagle supply together with J2 wreaths in parallele to full J2 production) but if that were the case there would be a few things that dont jive with what we know IMO

For one thing there was a "political" (for lack of a better term) decision by the Luftwaffe "big cheese" to modify/redesign the early gentle looking "button eye" eagles around the beginning of the war to make them look more massive & agressive looking than their predecessors.

Whatever the motivation/reasons behind this redesign it was imperative enough for all makers who previously produced "button eyes" (Juncker, Deumer, Assmann, IMME/JMME ?) to redesign their badges at about the same time and I strongly doubt the redesign was the result of all the old dies failing at the same time. Under the circumstances, other than the stock already in the pipeline (inventory) I would be surprized if Juncker (or anyone else for that matter) would have had the nerve to continue using "old style" eagles on newly redesigned (J2) wreaths to liquidate their old bird inventory

For another, more tangible reason, other than "owner modified" badges to my knowleddge, all J1 badges have blunt pin tips and so did J2 badges for a time but whatever the exact change date may be for the move to pointed pin tips it would have been towards the tail end of the J2 period (and the J3 period) which coincides with Alex's badge set up. Had these J1/2 hybrid Observers been produced from the intro of J2 wreaths either before or in paralelle to the new J2s they would also have blunt pins no?. Yet the few specimens I have seen all have pointed pins which leads me to beleive that by late J2 the powers to be became less concerned about the "nice/mean" bird style than they were about having stock to meet demand and Juncker took that opportunity to pass off their old birds

Salut mon vieux!

JC
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:42 PM   #9
Sebastien T
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Salut JC,

So following your theory with blunt pin, J4 Zinc would came before the J2?

Seb
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File Type: jpg J3-Zinc round catch plate back.jpg (213.3 KB, 92 views)
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Old 10-14-2019, 02:48 AM   #10
Alex Bolotnikov
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Thank you all for the replies! I also think such badges were produced for a very short period of time right after the introduction of J2. Quite logical to use the remaining "old" parts instead of scrapping them.
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Old 10-14-2019, 10:17 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastien T View Post
Salut JC,

So following your theory with blunt pin, J4 Zinc would came before the J2?

Seb
Allo Seb

I presume you're trying to be facetious ? If so dont quit your day job my friend...

No big "theory" here but the pin type is as much an indicator as the other traits of the badge and should not be ignored.

What it really boils down to is: J1 & early J2 Obs= blunt pin; some later J2 & J3 = pointed pin. If you find a badge with a J1 eagle on a J2 wreath with a blunt pin it would probably be contemporary to early J2 as you say BUT the same badge with a pointed pin would set it back to late J2 early J3 IMO. The pin type found on a J4 (almost 2 generations away) has nothing to do with this

Bonsoir

JC
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Old 10-15-2019, 11:07 AM   #12
Sebastien T
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JC I am not

Its completely Illogical to draw a time line with fixing pin tips more than eagle or/and wreath sequence. It is true earliest pin have pointed end but a quick research prove half are not. Why? I've been told by many collectors that actually spoke with veterans that most of them actually trimmed and make them round as the badge injured them self in duty as they were too sharp. So the logic is that later in war either pilot or crew trimmed them or simply factory stopped to do so. Here a line up of J1 with trimmed tip ends (CEJ,Full MM) and my J2 in pristine condition that have the end of the fixing pin with black finish that prove that this one was factory done.

Also you have a later J3 wreath with J2 eagle that have the pointed fixing pin which tells me it was not done accordingly to a regulation that would give us a time line but just a worker thing.!!!!

Salut

Seb
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File Type: jpg CEJ J1 back OBS.jpg (207.3 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg J1 OBS back.jpg (148.2 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg J2_Beobachter Back.jpg (138.4 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg Observer_Juncker-1a.jpg (195.7 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg Observer_Juncker-2a.jpg (107.3 KB, 38 views)
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Last edited by Sebastien T; 10-15-2019 at 11:17 AM.
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