wehrmacht awards


Go Back   Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums > Wehrmacht Era Militaria > Political Organizations

Political Organizations All aspects of Third Reich Political Organizations, including the SA, NSDAP, NSKK, NSFK, HJ, DAF, NSKOV, etc.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

Old 11-29-2013, 08:22 PM   #166
Matthew
Expelled
 
Matthew's Avatar
 
Matthew is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gau Alberta
Posts: 2,388
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Provenance, to be ironclad, has to almost be what you state. Granted, the grouping would not suffer much if this badge were not present. But ask yourself this, how much would this badge suffer without the grouping to legitimize it? After the first grouping we have now seen a slow trickle of new finds of this badge when, for over 60 years, no one has ever heard of or seen one before. I can't comment much on the alleged letter as it has not been posted in this thread and therefore I don't know if its content sheds any light on the legitimacy of this badge.
Richard V
My first question would be how would a faker attached this badge to groupings of this caliber, coming from dealer, families of the recipients, multiple sources, very different time line, far away locations? I do not see that being possible to pull off- we're talking something BEYOND creating a die and stamping a fake.

As to we never seen them before- as you know the second generation of collectors are slowly giving up their treasures to a younger generation. As such many treasures that would normally be a centerpieces of many a collection are or will relatively soon become available to others. That includes those rare pieces. To give you an example- I have stumbled upon a Gau badge previously undocumented in any books. Most- even seasoned collectors- are not aware of its existence. But it did. And it does. Fake? I am still researching it but I am more and more convinced of its originality...
 

Old 11-29-2013, 08:36 PM   #167
Matthew
Expelled
 
Matthew's Avatar
 
Matthew is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gau Alberta
Posts: 2,388
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Much of the lack of uniformity of the GPB can be attributed to the hand finishing when the enamel was being polished and we all have seen fakes that look much better than the originals of many awards.

Who would go through the trouble of creating half of the great quality fakes we have seen? Look at some of the quality NSFK enameled copies or of the Olympic fantasy badges. Many are executed in superior quality and style but you still don't see thousands on the market and they, even when many thought them real, were only trading hands for $100 or less.

When a badge can bring a market price of several thousand dollars, making even 20 (20 X $7500 = $150,000), can suddenly become a profitable venture, especially when many well heeled collectors believe them to be the ultimate in rare political items because they have been "vetted" by being in a prestigious group.

Why would someone during the 3rd Reich period create an award for a few of the elite then enlarge the circle to others of note with the BO only to have this award not surface on any picture of any of the Putsch celebrations since 1933? "Here is a special pinback award for you and a select few others but you can't wear it" doesn't make sense. Also why have the Stosstrupp cufftitle if this badge was intended as a special award for that group and allow them to wear one and not the othe?. If those would be the intended recipients, the cuff would be as rare as the badge and we have seen the cuff in photos.
When the enamel is polished it might affect the metal work in a way that it can change the thickness of the details but generally speaking- if it gets changed, it gets changed uniformly. We do not see half the letter much thicker or thinner then the rest. We do not see the lines running at funny angles because of the polishing process either. We see it because the details were created that way right from the hop when cutting the master.

Most of the fakes you speak of including the NSFK enamel badges can still be found at any mid size shows in the States by the multiples. When they first appeared they were literally everywhere. Gradually they got absorbed by people like you and me with the overflow sitting still at the dealer tables. At the last MAX show I probably seen 50 if not more. Different colors too. Quite a few of the Olympic pins too.
In a time when there are fake "seefahr ist not" tinnies- why create something that most are not even aware of if you can copy the 1933 RPT pin and make a killing? How many are you aware of that got sold in the last 20 years? My guess would be not too many.

You brought up the example of Stosstruppe cufftitle and why have those and the badge in question. Well, my question would be why have a stosstruppe cufftitle and then another stosstruppe cufftitle? For a force this size- why have two distinctively different cuffs?
But they did...
Difference was cufftitle was worn on the uniform as authorized for wear which is why we see them in pictures. This badge was not. And that is probably why we never seen it being worn...

Great discussion Richard!

cheers
Matt
 

Old 11-29-2013, 11:53 PM   #168
Richard
Association Member
 
Richard is offline
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: south of Canada, north of Mexico
Posts: 7,358
Default

What is interesting about this discussion and the badge itself is that for every con there is a pro and for every pro there is a con, but nothing solid exists either way. I think it will live in a limbo between believers and non believers until something concrete comes out to sway one side to the other. As Bob said, buy only what you are comfortable with and that is something all of us should live by.

I'm not sure the second generation of collectors giving up their treasures to the younger generation provides the impetus on why these badges are suddenly showing up because, as I understand, these came from families of the recipients in the last 7 years or so and not other collectors. Would anyone happen to have a number as to how many of these came in groupings to date versus by themselves? Also do we know how many of the ones that came from families were members in the Stosstrupp AH which might have qualified for this, if indeed this was an award especially for them?

Looking at the photo provided of the kepi case, it appears the inner lining is somewhat loose fitting with more of a drape effect than a solid backing designed for a specific badge. The inside shape of the case doesn't conform well to the shape of the badge and doesn't seem to fit it well as if it were designed for something else which was not as broad but would have a greater dimension from top to bottom. The badge appears squeezed on the left and right with a rather poor fit but has lots of room at the top and bottom. There is a distinct lack of proportionality and conformity with the badge housed within. Looking at the picture supplied of the badge in the case in post 84, it appears the badge seats poorly in the case and the center of the badge appears to hover above the base of the case. I think the badge is just laying in the case without any indentation for the pin, a further indication this case, even if genuine, might not have been created specifically for this badge.

"Why make up a fake case since, judging by the price it sold for, it didn't help elevate the badge to a higher price?" My response would be why not try to see if it would help elevate the price in an auction setting? This case wouldn't cost a fortune to make and if it made even a $500 difference in price, it would be worth the effort. Since it didn't make much of a difference, I'm wondering how many more cased examples we will see?

Have there been other cases with Ges. Gesch. stamped in red and how often was Ges. Gesch. done in all lower case in cases? I notice that even in your response Matthew, you capitalize at least the G's which isn't the case for this etui.

In all honesty, we don't know what was in the grouping that came from the families as we haven't heard from any of them, only the dealers that obtained these. It would be interesting to see some type of written testimonial from the family member relinquishing these, their relationship with the original recipient, what was contained in the grouping and to have this attested and notarized by a German notary. In Germany, notary confirmation has considerably more legal heft than it has here in the US. I am surprised the dealers who obtain these groupings don't do this to provide an additional layer of legal assurance as to the contents of important groupings. This would provide a fairly significant underpinning in the provenance trail. Has there been a collector who has been the recipient of one of these groupings directly from the family without some type of intermediary involved?

"You brought up the example of Stosstruppe cufftitle and why have those and the badge in question. Well, my question would be why have a stosstruppe cufftitle and then another stosstruppe cufftitle? For a force this size- why have two distinctively different cuffs?
But they did..."

Matthew, I'm unsure if I understand what you are saying here and it could be due to my lack of knowledge. Were there two different cufftitles? If there were, was only one authorized or was it that they had two different variations?

I've never believed the NSDAP was afraid of alienating anyone. If they were, the Stosstrupp AH cuff would surely have alienated the BO holders, who would have alienated the GPB holders, who would have alienated the regular party badge holder, etc. The NSDAP seemed more to thrive on one upmanship with such things as the Coburg badge, the presentation AH GPB, the 25 year NSDAP cross, the Deutscher Orden and so forth. It was a "I was there and you weren't" or "I have more importance than you do" world back then. To assume they would make a badge and expect recipients to not show them off in a display of some type of superiority to avoid hurting the feelings of others, seems contrary to many of the decorations and awards they created.

Matthew, you indicate the Stosstrupp AH cuff was authorized for wear but this badge was not, hence we see the former in pictures but not the latter. Has anything been found which indicates this badge was not authorized for wear?

I've also noticed several spelling mistakes in my post #160 which I never corrected before posting for which I apologize. For me, early mornings and spelling do not mix.

Matthew, I'd love to meet you sometime and continue this discussion over as many beers as it takes for both of us to arrive at the same opinions we have now. We would, most likely, not change any of our minds and still not have an answer as to what these badges were, represented or their originality, but we would probably have a great time doing it!
Richard V
__________________
Der größte Feind der Menschheit wohl
Ist sicherlich der Alkohol
Doch in der Bibel steht geschrieben
Mann soll auch seine Feinde lieben!
 

.
Old 11-30-2013, 12:57 AM   #169
Matthew
Expelled
 
Matthew's Avatar
 
Matthew is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gau Alberta
Posts: 2,388
Default .

Hello Richard,

To the best of my knowledge nothing has been found to date in the official writings from the period about this badge and its issue, wear or its authorization.
The closest we can get to one would be the letter from Maurice describing some of the details including the fact that the piece in question was not to be worn.
As for how many solo vs in groupings- I would say 3 groups (minimum) and 2 single pieces. I say minimum as I am simply not familiar as to any other material that accompanied the other 2 badges- it could be more.
The cufftitle question- for years it has been assumed that only one type of Stosstruppe cuff existed (or was accepted to exist). Someone had another one that was disqualified by most until a picture of one of the members showed up wearing the same. I think some here might be familiar with the story. Going on memory one was wider than the usual one.
How many of those badges that have surfaced have been associated with the Stosstruppe members- I would say all.
One more thing that came to me- as far as this badge being a simple anniversary pin of the Putsch. Didn't what has been called 'Gau Munchen" turn out to be just that? 10 year anniversary of the Putsch tinnie?

I would also welcome the idea of discussing this (and few other subjects) at length while enjoying some refreshments. My fridge is always stacked and you're always welcome my Friend!

cheers
Matt
 

another
Old 11-30-2013, 01:55 PM   #170
Matthew
Expelled
 
Matthew's Avatar
 
Matthew is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gau Alberta
Posts: 2,388
Default another

Here is another one commemorating the 10th anniversary of the Putsch.

cheers
Matt
Attached Images
File Type: jpg another.jpg (241.0 KB, 1070 views)
 

Old 11-30-2013, 02:11 PM   #171
Richard
Association Member
 
Richard is offline
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: south of Canada, north of Mexico
Posts: 7,358
Default

Does anyone know or have a guess as to what the ball the eagle is holding is intended to signify on the badge under discussion?
Richard V
__________________
Der größte Feind der Menschheit wohl
Ist sicherlich der Alkohol
Doch in der Bibel steht geschrieben
Mann soll auch seine Feinde lieben!
 

Old 11-30-2013, 05:25 PM   #172
der-hase-fee
Member
 
der-hase-fee's Avatar
 
der-hase-fee is offline
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 3,541
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Does anyone know or have a guess as to what the ball the eagle is holding is intended to signify on the badge under discussion?
Richard V
A front view of the bullet that wounded Addi ?

Or more likely a globe. On top of the Halle des Volkes in Germania:




See at about 30 minutes into it.

Last edited by der-hase-fee; 11-30-2013 at 05:34 PM.
 

Old 11-30-2013, 09:16 PM   #173
Matthew
Expelled
 
Matthew's Avatar
 
Matthew is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gau Alberta
Posts: 2,388
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Does anyone know or have a guess as to what the ball the eagle is holding is intended to signify on the badge under discussion?
Richard V
Most of the flag tops from the Putsch spotted a ball at the top- presumably also the flag that became later known as the "Blutfahne". Even after it became famous it still retained the ball which was toppled by a wreath and a swastika.
Two flag posts on Odeonsplatz are finished with circles atop as well.
Each tower of the Theatinerkirche to the right of FHH is also finished with a ball. When you think of it, there is a lot of balls where the Putsch took place (no pun intended).
Could be anything really.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg tumblr_lv8bh5IqjZ1r5atg3o1_1280.jpg (35.8 KB, 1054 views)
File Type: jpg 9NovLudwigsbr2.jpg (97.1 KB, 1052 views)
 

Old 11-30-2013, 09:24 PM   #174
Matthew
Expelled
 
Matthew's Avatar
 
Matthew is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gau Alberta
Posts: 2,388
Default

One more to illustrate my point. Also the color pic got me wondering- in particular the dashing fella in black with a big shiny badge on his right pocket. Supposedly the pic was taken during the 10th anniversary of the Putsch but it really does not look like its the tinnie of that event ("Gau Munchen"). Does he look like Fiehler (of the Stosstruppen fame)?
Just speculating
Attached Images
File Type: jpg XM10062141.jpg (43.8 KB, 1056 views)
File Type: jpg Fahne-ogeb-Blutfahne.jpg (84.4 KB, 1056 views)
 

Old 11-30-2013, 09:26 PM   #175
Matthew
Expelled
 
Matthew's Avatar
 
Matthew is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gau Alberta
Posts: 2,388
Default

Popular eagle design I guess...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SSPage36Opener.jpg (156.8 KB, 1055 views)
 

Old 12-01-2013, 12:52 AM   #176
Tony T-S
Association Member
 
Tony T-S's Avatar
 
Tony T-S is offline
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: South Australia
Posts: 4,865
Default

It was one of the questions in my mind earlier in the thread re the shape of the eagle. The example on the medal is clearly not that that dis-similar to other early period ones.
__________________
Why is patience a virtue, why can't hurry the f*** up be a virtue.

Looking for an original 50 years faithful work/service medal
 

Old 12-01-2013, 08:13 AM   #177
der-hase-fee
Member
 
der-hase-fee's Avatar
 
der-hase-fee is offline
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 3,541
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
Could be anything really.
No, not at all. It's a globe.
 

Old 06-15-2015, 02:27 PM   #178
all1knew
Lifetime Member
 
all1knew's Avatar
 
all1knew is offline
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: IL
Posts: 14,945
Default

Here's one for sale with the Emil Maurice grouping:

http://www.garyhendershott.net/onlin...s/emil-maurice

William Kramer
 

Old 06-22-2015, 01:03 PM   #179
Erich B.
Moderator
 
Erich B.'s Avatar
 
Erich B. is offline
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 7,482
Default

I've been informed by a member, who has been in more recent contact than I with Bob, that the Maurice set was sold by him, with full disclosure of its faults and questions, prior to being listed in the current Hendershott catalogue. As none of the problems with the items are mentioned in the descriptions, the current owner apparently refrained from passing them on.
Erich
__________________
Festina lente!
 
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump






vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright Wehrmacht-Awards.com