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View Poll Results: The "French-made" KM badges are...
...perfectly acceptable as official wartime originals (despite Präsidialkanzlei discouragement) 41 23.56%
...wartime production but unofficial and disallowed for distribution 23 13.22%
...a post-war invention, all are fakes 84 48.28%
...something I cannot make my mind up about either way 26 14.94%
Voters: 174. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-06-2018, 01:55 AM   #46
TOULON44
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Hello Norm F,
I have send a post tonight and I don't see it ?
Thank
Chris
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:14 AM   #47
TOULON44
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Norm F,
I send my post again !
You are talking about this badge which I do not have to do because it is not my priority. You send me a picture of the hotel de la marine, I know where it is thank you, you refute the testimonies of our elders. Where were you at the time when they were picking up these badges ?
We are respectful of the GIs who came to liberate France and do not question neither their testimonies nor the origin of their memories.
You refute the testimonials on the hotel of the navy but I also speak to you of the badges left naval bases of the kriegsmarine.
Another testimony, my testimony, it is not blah blah. When I was military I saw in an arsenal of the French army thousands of mauser 98 K prepared for Africa and which never delivered . They were destroyed by the French state in 2016, there were 3000! So for 71 years these rifles remained stored.
Yes, France was teeming with thousands of tons of material destroyed or not after the war, you can not imagine that the Germans have left behind!
Be interested in the amount of materials of all kinds including badges.
Chris
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:36 AM   #48
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Hi Dietrich,
I come back to what Gams1 said about the term Verboten.
Everyone agrees that the German army was very strict and that regulation is the regulation! So why did you interpret the 1942 directive as "forbidden" to make these insignia to foreign companies? If the Germans had wanted absolutely to ban all foreign fabrications, they would have used the word "Verboten"
In addition, this directive, as I have already said, dates back to 1942 and therefore has nothing to do with contracts made before that date. Now actually following this directive the production has ceased, it is perhaps also the explanation of the fact that the insignia second model of the launching torpedo boat was never manufactured by Bacqueville. Has this point already been emphasized?
Chris
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:42 AM   #49
TOULON44
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According to the testimony of Bilbert the insignia of the French-made coastal artillery would have been worn?
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Old 03-06-2018, 05:14 AM   #50
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Hello,

I was part of those who wanted to believe in this story (but who didn't want in their collection) .. However today, we must recognize that they are fake..

BR
Panzertrupp'
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Old 03-06-2018, 06:18 AM   #51
Norm F
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Hi Chris,

Please don’t take this discussion personally. This is a moderated subform whose sole purpose is for the discussion of Kriegsmarine war badges. Please don’t read more into this than there is, but posts that are excessively repetitive of the same point or use hyperbole to misrepresent the words of others will be deleted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOULON44 View Post
You are talking about this badge which I do not have to do because it is not my priority.
Of course there is no obligation to participate in a group discussion on a particular badge, but neither is there a need to announce your non-interest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOULON44 View Post
You send me a picture of the hotel de la marine, I know where it is thank you,
The posting of the Google maps of the former French naval ministry was not for you personally. It was for the benefit of readers who perhaps do not know the locations being discussed. It alway helps to visualize the places in a discussion — makes it more real.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOULON44 View Post
We are respectful of the GIs who came to liberate France and do not question neither their testimonies nor the origin of their memories.
This discussion is in no way showing any disrespect for the veterans of the WW2. We’re talking about the verification of historical artifacts which are subject to the same rigour and requirements of the art and antique world. Personal anecdotes are an important part of the discussion, but only one part, and alone are insufficient to establish provenence.

The three pillars of research in this field are anecdotes, historical documents and forensics and for any conclusions to be drawn they must be consistent with all three. Currently, the argument for authenticity is supported on only one of these pillars.

For now, we must live with some uncertainty as the investigative process continues. That’s why this discussion thread is set up as an opinion poll and not a reference thread. All votes are welcome and the result is a snapshot in time of current thinking in the collecting community.

Best regards,
---Norm
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Old 03-06-2018, 06:45 AM   #52
Norm F
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOULON44 View Post
According to the testimony of Bilbert the insignia of the French-made coastal artillery would have been worn?
It was an S-Boat badge, but yes the inference from that anecdote is that the badge was actually worn which is why I asked the followup question for more details. At this point it’s just another story told to a collector, albeit a very experienced collector in billbert’s case.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TOULON44 View Post
Hi Dietrich,
I come back to what Gams1 said about the term Verboten.
Everyone agrees that the German army was very strict and that regulation is the regulation! So why did you interpret the 1942 directive as "forbidden" to make these insignia to foreign companies? If the Germans had wanted absolutely to ban all foreign fabrications, they would have used the word "Verboten"
In addition, this directive, as I have already said, dates back to 1942 and therefore has nothing to do with contracts made before that date. Now actually following this directive the production has ceased, it is perhaps also the explanation of the fact that the insignia second model of the launching torpedo boat was never manufactured by Bacqueville. Has this point already been emphasized?
Chris
Awards, not insignia, and we’ve been through enough back and forth regarding the interpretation of “unerwünscht”. Further repetition of this point will be deleted.

And yes, we’ve been over that point about the timing of the announcement many times in past discussion (it seems like we’re doomed to repeat the entire 23-page previous thread.) But if the French-made badges were actually cast prior to the 1942 PK announcement forbidding such things, it remains a mystery why the S-Boat and Fleet badges were made far in excess of the Minesweeper badge which was the most commonly needed badge in the area in terms of sheer numbers of personnel.

Best regards,
—-Norm
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:07 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm F View Post
it remains a mystery why the S-Boat and Fleet badges were made far in excess of the Minesweeper badge which was the most commonly needed badge in the area in terms of sheer numbers of personnel.

Best regards,
—-Norm
Hi Norm,
The only explanation that comes to my mind is that early after the end of war the souvenir market was just soaked with tons of original leftover Minesweeper badges by RS, S&L, flatbacks and others, and starting mass production of new ones was risky from the business point of view. The margin on selling cheap and common Minesweepers must have been much lower compared to other KM awards while production costs remained the same.
Cheers,
Hubert
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Old 03-06-2018, 08:11 AM   #54
Norm F
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Hi Hubert,

That’s certainly one possibility but two others are:
1) The mold, porous and poor quality as it was, broke right after starting production.
2) Production was intended but halted by the PK announcement in 1942.

It just seems odd otherwise that the mold was even made in the first place. But I’m still with you, in view of the odd casting technique I can’t accept these badges as wartime unless better evidence to explain the forensics appears.

Best regards,
---Norm
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Old 03-06-2018, 10:35 AM   #55
Jeff V
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I was wondering if anyone knows if the french manufactured any other types of awards during the war with this unique casted style?
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:48 PM   #56
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Post war or war time I'm OK with my example, What company in France would admit to making war badges for the Germans. I would like to hear a little more from Billbert.
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Old 03-06-2018, 04:18 PM   #57
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Good evening Ralph,
I don’t want to cause any upset here but you can see in your photos that the badge is cast and also the hardware!
One thing I would like to know on these cast badges is why the Faker included the waves from the front also on the back ? Strange , it does not make it original but somewhat intriguing
Kind regards Chay
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Old 03-06-2018, 04:41 PM   #58
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Hi Chay, I got this badge from Bill Shea owner of the Ruptured Duck with his life time guarantee or your money back, according to Bill it is pre May 1945. I have no idea and my return it. Thanks for your insight. Ralph
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Old 03-06-2018, 04:47 PM   #59
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Ralph,
That’s good, it’s early days but looking at the new studies of these they really don’t stand much of a chance, the creator of these badges must have been working out of a grarage making all the parts individually by hand which is not seen on any other award ever created !
Kind regards Chay
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Old 03-06-2018, 05:05 PM   #60
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There's another odd feature on the French-made S-Boats. The deflected inner margin on Schwerin badges is caused by the trimming stamp that removes the flashing for the internal cutouts. Oddly enough, this feature is reproduced on the French-made S-Boat, simulating the look of a die trimmed badge despite the fact that video microscopy of the inner margins definitively proves them to be cast construction.

Similar to the simulated shear lines, I can think of no legitimate reason for the maker to reproduce this feature in a casting mold other than to deceive.

Best regards,
---Norm
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