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Bundesrepublik Deutschland, 1949-Present From West Germany through to the modern reunified German Republic.

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West German Truppenfahnen ???
Old 04-28-2009, 01:39 AM   #1
oldflagswanted
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Default West German Truppenfahnen ???

Hello:
Does anyone know if the West Germans had Truppenfahne Urkunde,
like the DDR had which were copied from the Soviets. I've not seen
Imperial, Third Reich, or any West German examples of same, thus my
question. Also what is the text of the West German soldiers flag oath?
...............
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Munich Reservist standard ???
Old 04-28-2009, 09:49 AM   #2
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Default Munich Reservist standard ???

I'm always interested in seeing close up photos of old German Army fahnen, including West
German unit flags, and/or any examples from the new reunified Germany if different from those
used in the past.
.......

Last edited by oldflagswanted; 04-29-2009 at 12:11 PM.
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Munich Reservist fahne other side
Old 04-28-2009, 10:27 AM   #3
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Default Munich Reservist fahne other side

PS/ ....here is the other side of the Munich Reservist Standard, done in Bavarian colors.
,,,,,,
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:27 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldflagswanted View Post
Also what is the text of the West German soldiers flag oath?
There are two versions depending on soldier's status. One for career soldiers and noncareer volunteers and the other for conscripts. The former has an oath (Vereidigung), the latter pledge (Gelöbnis).

Berufsoldaten und Soldaten auf Zeit (career and noncareer volunteers):
„Ich schwöre, der Bundesrepublik Deutschland treu zu dienen und das Recht und die Freiheit des deutschen Volkes tapfer zu verteidigen, so wahr mir Gott helfe.“

Wehrpflichten (conscripts):
„Ich gelobe, der Bundesrepublik Deutschland treu zu dienen und das Recht und die Freiheit des deutschen Volkes tapfer zu verteidigen.“

And the Diensteid of the Bundesgrenzschutz for comparison with a paramilitary organisation:
„Ich schwöre, das Grundgesetz für die Bundesrepublik Deutschland und alle in der Bundesrepublik geltenden Gesetze zu wahren und meine Amtspflichten gewissenhaft zu erfüllen, so wahr mir Gott hilfe.“

Technically I think it is illegal to sell or possess (at least in Germany) Bundeswehr Truppenfahnen so they are quite rare. Not sure about disbanded units or organisations like BGS that no longer exist though.

regards
Klaus
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more about German unit flags ???
Old 04-28-2009, 01:12 PM   #5
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Default more about German unit flags ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus1989 View Post
There are two versions depending on soldier's status. One for career soldiers and noncareer volunteers and the other for conscripts. The former has an oath (Vereidigung), the latter pledge (Gelöbnis).

Berufsoldaten und Soldaten auf Zeit (career and noncareer volunteers):
„Ich schwöre, der Bundesrepublik Deutschland treu zu dienen und das Recht und die Freiheit des deutschen Volkes tapfer zu verteidigen, so wahr mir Gott helfe.“

Wehrpflichten (conscripts):
„Ich gelobe, der Bundesrepublik Deutschland treu zu dienen und das Recht und die Freiheit des deutschen Volkes tapfer zu verteidigen.“

And the Diensteid of the Bundesgrenzschutz for comparison with a paramilitary organisation:
„Ich schwöre, das Grundgesetz für die Bundesrepublik Deutschland und alle in der Bundesrepublik geltenden Gesetze zu wahren und meine Amtspflichten gewissenhaft zu erfüllen, so wahr mir Gott hilfe.“

Technically I think it is illegal to sell or possess (at least in Germany) Bundeswehr Truppenfahnen so they are quite rare. Not sure about disbanded units or organisations like BGS that no longer exist though.

regards
Klaus
Klaus:
Thanks for posting the text variations of the modern German flag oaths.
Likewise is there a 3x cheer shouted at the end as the Russians do?
Here are some related German Army unit flag pole top finials of my own.

...

Last edited by oldflagswanted; 04-28-2009 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 04-28-2009, 01:22 PM   #6
Gordon Craig
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Klaus,

Great answer. I'd like to turn your response into a pinned thread for the forum members. Would you please include a translation of all of the oaths listed and PM it to me if you agree.

Regards,

Gordon
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about Bundeswehr tradition ???
Old 04-28-2009, 08:47 PM   #7
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Default about Bundeswehr tradition ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Criag View Post
Klaus,
Great answer. I'd like to turn your response into a pinned thread for
the forum members. Would you please include a translation of all of
the oaths listed and PM it to me if you agree.
Regards,
Gordon
Gordon:
Ditto that, and here is some additional information on Bundeswehr
tradition policy including flags, etc., as translated from German.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
...tradition in the Bundeswehr
Berlin, 09/20/1982
Tradition is the transmission of values ...a process of value-based confrontation
with the past. Tradition connects the generations, ...and builds a bridge between
past and future. Tradition is an essential foundation of human culture. It requires
understanding of historical, political and social relationships. Benchmark for under-
standing tradition in the Bundeswehr, the Basic Law of the Armed Forces and the
tasks and duties. The Basic Law is the answer to German history. ...This calls for
the total stock of German history into consideration and to exclude nothing. ...the
Nazi forces were partly culpable ...Third Reich, tradition can not be justified.
....Tradition is part of the soldiers training. ...Military experience and military
achievements of the past can be used for the training of armed forces of [their]
importance. ...Encounters in the context of the tradition, only with such persons or
organizations, which in their basic political attitude to the values and aspirations of
our constitutional order are required. Traditions of troops of former German Federal
Armed Forces will be sent to units not awarded. Flags and banners of former German
troops in the Army are not accompanied on board. Official contacts with successor
organizations of former Waffen-SS, are prohibited. Nazi flag, the swastika, in particular,
may not be shown. Excepted from this prohibition are depictions of the confrontation
with Nazism in the political or historical education serve Wehrgeschichtlichen exhibitions
of the museum and the use of this indicator in terms of research and teaching. Tradition
needs symbols, signs and Ceremonial. In the tradition of the Armed Forces [these] have
special meaning:

[flag] the black-red-gold flag as a symbol of liberal-republican citizenship and
civic responsibility and democratic;

[music] our national anthem as an expression of the aspirations of the Germans
to unity, justice and freedom;

[emblems] the eagle of the German coat of arms as a sign of national sovereignty,
the law serves power, and of historical continuity;

[symbols] the Iron Cross as a national identification number and a symbol of
bravery, chivalry and love of freedom;

[oath] and the solemn vow of the soldiers as a confession and promise of the
Federal Republic of Germany and faithful to serve the right and the freedom of
the German people to defend bravely.

The meaning of symbols, signs and Ceremonial of the soldiers must be explained
and kept alive. ...as an expression of togetherness and feeling of the song as good
comrades farewell also a permanent place in the tradition of care. The collection of
weapons, models, documents, flags, pictures, decorations and equipment is permitted.
The reservists of the Bundeswehr aims at appropriate events and comradely meetings.
The singing in the Force is an old custom, which are preserved. The song is in the song-
book of the Bundeswehr... Source: Website of the Bundeswehr: www.bundeswehr.de
Full text at www.uni-kassel.de/fb5/frieden/themen/Bundeswehr/traditionserlass.html
............................

Last edited by oldflagswanted; 04-29-2009 at 01:15 PM.
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1956 Bundeswehr Panzer Battalion Swallowtail ???
Old 04-29-2009, 02:41 AM   #8
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Default 1956 Bundeswehr Panzer Battalion Swallowtail ???

Here is an interesting 1956 Bundeswehr Panzer Battalion 183 prototype
swallowtail, modeled somewhat after the 3rd Reich version, where the
West German Eagle replaced two of the previous Casberg design corner
swastikas, and having the unit emblem center as on US unit flags.
..........
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Old 04-29-2009, 11:43 AM   #9
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this flagg was inofficial und was bought by the 5 Kompaniefeldwebel of the bataillon in 1963 (with their own money).
Some bataillons did so, because before 1965 there were absolutly no flags in german army. The style is very similiar to the flags of the former Wehrmacht, because nearly all NCO´s and officers in these days had served in the Wehrmacht.
The commander of PzBtl 183 in 1963/64 was Oberstleutnant Wessel, former commander of 1. Kompanie schw. SS PzAbt101.

her is another pic of the flag:
(you will find this flag in future in MHM Dresden)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Standarte183-22.jpg (116.5 KB, 283 views)

Last edited by LuckyStrike23; 04-29-2009 at 11:46 AM. Reason: .
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Old 04-29-2009, 11:56 AM   #10
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and here is the flag in action (approximatly 1963). The guy wo bears it is a former OSchaFü in SS Panzeraufklärungsabteilung 11 and still alive.
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File Type: jpg Flagge.jpg (69.0 KB, 279 views)
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Nice close up photo, thanks !!!
Old 04-29-2009, 12:08 PM   #11
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Default Nice close up photo, thanks !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PzOffz27 View Post
this flagg was inofficial und was bought by the 5
Kompaniefeldwebel of the bataillon in 1963 (with their own money). Some
bataillons did so, because before 1965 there were absolutly no flags in german
army. The style is very similiar to the flags of the former Wehrmacht, because
nearly all NCO´s and officers in these days had served in the Wehrmacht. The
commander of PzBtl 183 in 1963/64 was Oberstleutnant Wessel, former commander
of 1. Kompanie schw. SS PzAbt101. her is another pic of the flag: (you will find this
flag in future in MHM Dresden)
Hello PzOffz27:
Thanks for posting a nice close up photo of the other side of the PzB-183
swallowtail. If you have any other photos of pre-1965 custom made Bundeswehr
fahnen und standarten I would love to see them. So per your posting I guess
that the Bundeswehr tri-color unit flags came into existance circa 1965? Do you
know if Bundeswehr truppenfahen presentation urkunde also exist for same as
was done in the DDR? Do you have any examples of the engraving on a FRG
truppenfahne pole band?

Last edited by oldflagswanted; 04-29-2009 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 04-29-2009, 12:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldflagswanted View Post
Hello PzOffz27:
Thanks for posting a nice close up photo of the other side of the PzB-183
swallowtail. If you have any other photos of pre-1965 custom made Bundeswehr
fahnen und standarten I would love to see them. So per your posting I guess
that the Bundeswehr tri-color unit flags came into existance circa 1965? Do you
know if Bundeswehr truppenfahen presentation urkunde also exist for same as
was done in the DDR? Or any examples of the engraving on a FRG truppenfahne
pole band?
those flags are very rare and MHM Dresden was very glad as we gave them our flag in 2007 (183 doesnt exist anymore unfortunatly). I think only very few have survived. After 1965 these privat purchased flags were forbidden (in public).
The "normal" Truppenfahne was introduced in 1964 and deliverd to the units in a big ceremony in Münster in 1965 (i have a few pictures of the ceremony, if you are interested).
I have never seen a presentation urkunde and i suppose there were no such dokuments in Bundeswehr.
I have seen a few other privat purchased flags, but most of them were much simpler as our example. Unfortunatly i have no more pictures.
Today most of the older units are dissolved and tradition is not welcome in Bundeswehr 2009!
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Old 04-29-2009, 12:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus1989 View Post
Technically I think it is illegal to sell or possess (at least in Germany) Bundeswehr Truppenfahnen so they are quite rare. Not sure about disbanded units or organisations like BGS that no longer exist though.

regards
Klaus
Truppenfahnen are normal suplly articles. I know it sounds strange, but a unit can order it like a pair of shoes.
But normally a unit recieve one example and keep it. What happens with these flag (after a unit is disbanded) depends on the branch. Panzertruppe collect these flags and displayed them in Panzertruppenschule Munster in Scharnhorstsaal. Every year on Volkstrauertag you can sea a few of them during the ceremony:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg jh9cba.jpg (156.6 KB, 485 views)

Last edited by LuckyStrike23; 04-29-2009 at 02:09 PM.
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more about Bundeswehr Truppenfahnen ???
Old 04-29-2009, 01:02 PM   #14
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Default more about Bundeswehr Truppenfahnen ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by PzOffz27 View Post
those flags are very rare and MHM Dresden was very glad as we gave
them our flag in 2007 (183 doesnt exist anymore unfortunatly). I think only very few have survived.
After 1965 these privat purchased flags were forbidden (in public). The "normal" Truppenfahne was
introduced in 1964 and deliverd to the units in a big ceremony in Münster in 1965 (i have a few pictures
of the ceremony, if you are interested). I have never seen a presentation urkunde and i suppose there
were no such dokuments in Bundeswehr. I have seen a few other privat purchased flags, but most of
them were much simpler as our example. Unfortunatly i have no more pictures. Today most of the older
units are dissolved and tradition is not welcome in Bundeswehr 2009!
PzOffz27:
Again a very informative reply posting, thanks! Yes, please do post your Münster
1965 Truppenfahnen presentation photos. Do you know how many FRG units had or
have truppenfahnen? Is there only one size for both Infantry and Motorized units? Is
there one maker like Bonnerfahnenfabrik in Bonn, maker of the iron cross fahnenspitzen.


Last edited by oldflagswanted; 04-29-2009 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 04-29-2009, 01:14 PM   #15
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i have to search for the pics - they are somewhere on a CD, i will try to find them on weekend.
Concerning the seize of the Truppenfahne please have a look here:
http://fotw.fivestarflags.com/de_law.html

Every bataillon has its own flag and i know no bataillon which has excanged it to a new one.
I have no idea who makes these flags.
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