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Bundesrepublik Deutschland, 1949-Present From West Germany through to the modern reunified German Republic.

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Old 04-10-2010, 07:37 PM   #31
Gordon Craig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus1989 View Post
Here is an unusual find - a Zoll work/field jacket (Arbeitsjacke) made of lightweight material that is mottled tan-green up close but looks olive at distance. Pleated pockets and cloth half-liner. No insignia appears to have been worn on this. No stamps or maker label but I would guess this from late 1960s (early 1970s at latest).



Liner:
Gentlemen,

I bought this tunic from Klaus about a year ago. Recently, I spent some time going over it and came to the conclusion that it was not a Zoll tunic. I sent an email to Klaus about this and he said that I was possibly correct because it was sold to him as a Zoll jacket so he assumed that it was.
The two main reaseons I suspected that it was not Zoll was the four pocket style is more typical of West German polizei than anything else. Once I inspected it closely, I found that it has a slit in the right hip pocket which was used by some West Berlin Polizei for pistols. The pistol was attached eith to a belt or an over the shoulder belt, much like a sword belt, and worn under the jacket. The only thing you see is the holster and not the belt which often caused the jackets to wrinkle because of the weight of the holstered pistol.
Finally, I emailed a friend who is an advanced police collector who agreed that it looked like a police four pocket tunic. In addition, he said that Nordrein Westfalen police used tunics made out of this unusual coloured material post WWII. The unusual colour doesn't show up in this photo. The tunic is green with yellow specs all the way through the material. My friend also mentioned that material like this was used briefly by the Luftwaffe in 1942/43.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 04-11-2010, 10:39 AM   #32
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Hi Gordon,

Well, I know a little bit about that jacket because until about 2 years ago it was in my collection before selling it to Klaus Here is a picture of the cloth detail:



I had some S-H Polizei friends visit me a few years before I sold the jacket. They were very puzzled about its origins. They are also fairly advanced collectors/sellers themselves, though they are less familiar with esoteric/exotic stuff. All we were able to do was speculate it was some sort of law enforcement field jacket. This ruled out Justiz and some other organizations, but unfortunately left open far too many possibilities.

Later, I received the confirmed Zoll jacket pictured on Page 2 of this thread. The cloth also has little flecks and the green base is identical. However, the flecks aren't quite as yellow as the one you have. The cut of the jacket is also different, some of which you can see when comparing the two together:



It does not have the pass through pocket for the pistol either. However, given how unique the cloth is I made a best guess that the tunic you have is Zoll. I think the information you received about it being used by post-war Berlin Polizei makes more sense, though I suppose Zoll (who were armed back then, yes?) might also have used field jackets with the pass through pocket?

Steve
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Old 04-11-2010, 09:09 PM   #33
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Steve,

In my previous post I said this jacket was identified by my police collector friend as being used by Nordrhein Westfalen. I was mistaken. Here is what he actually said "
I agree that the drillich jacket is probably not Zoll but standard West German Police. It could be either a work jacket (drill) or a summer duty jacket without insignia. This salt n pepper material is the same as some of the wartime Pol Sommerjacke. Some early police continued to use this material (which was also used by the Italians and Luftwaffe sparingly before '43). Some of these postwar jackets fool collectors into thinking they were wartime but the cut is different while the material is the same. I have seen these with Hamburg Police markings. Look closely inside and see if you can find a rectangular black rubber stamp rectangle with something like H.Pol. inside the rectangle. "
After carefully looking over the jacket again I was unable to find any Hamburg Polizei markings. I went through my other polizei tunics and I found a Bayern Landespolizei tunic that had used the same material that this "Zoll" jacket was made out of to make the interior breast pockets.
I do not think the tunic you posted above is Zoill either. It looks very much like a Bayern Landespolizei tunic to me.
The Zoll did not carry firearms as far as I know. They had no police powers and could only prepare evidence in cases in breach of Cutoms and tax regulations. While they worked closely with the BGS I do not think that they would have had any requirement for a field tunic.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 04-11-2010, 11:33 PM   #34
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Hi Gordon,

Interesting... then the jacket you have is still somewhat of a mystery then. I agree with you and your contact that it is likely Polizei of some sort.

About the other jacket I posted. It isn't Zoll? I thought the rank was Zoll for sure, specifically Zollassistent. If it isn't Zoll, then what is it? I know for certain it isn't Bayern since Bayern doesn't have ranks with wreaths. Not Baden-Baden either. Pretty much every other service uses rank on the shoulders or arms, as do Feuerwehr, Bahnpolizei, etc.

Very confused now

Steve
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Old 04-12-2010, 12:27 PM   #35
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Hi Gordon,

I was unable to find a reliable source of rank information for Zoll personnel on the Internet. Then I remembered I have a couple of old BGS "Taschenbuch" with details of ranks of all West and East German military and police forces.

For sure the jacket I pictured a few posts ago and on Page 2 is Zoll from before 1970. The rank structure changed after that, which was confusing me because that's the only type I found on the Internet.

The rank of the jacket with the silver bullion badging is for Zollinspektor, Zollinspektor z.A., or Zollbetriebsinspektor (presumably determined by posting/department). The jacket pictured with the same looking rank, but in green, is for Zollassistent, Zollassistent z.A., Zollanwärtter, or Zollhauptwachmeister.

So I guess I go back to what I said before. The mystery jacket you have is very similar to the Zoll jacket I have, but with a difference in the fleck color. This is why I made the guess that it is Zoll. However, it appears more likely used by some Polizei force instead, based on the lower right access pocket and the information you got from your collector contact.

Steve
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Old 04-12-2010, 02:39 PM   #36
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Steve,

I have never found a source of rank information on the net for Zoll either Nor uniforms. You mentioned that you did find something in that line on the net and I'd like to have the url for that site please. It would be great if it was possible for you to scan the information in your BGS books re Zoll uniforms and ranks and post them in this thread for our future reference. I am not surprised that the BRD Zoll wore something else besides the blazer style jacket in the past. The blazer style just doesn't seem to fit from the 1950s until now. Uniforms usually change more often that that!
Anyway, thanks for the input and loking forward to any other info you can turrn up on Zoll uniforms and ranks. In the meantime, here is a jacket for a Zoll See member.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 04-12-2010, 10:17 PM   #37
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Gordon,
Did you win the Zoll-See jacket?

I think I was wrong with caps. I have seen a few photos and it is clear that the metal Bundesadler/wreath is first model cap (1950s-70s?) and simple Kokarde/wreath is later (1970s-90s/current?). The cloth Bundesadler version is either variant or replacement for first model cap.

Here is Zoll insignia, ca. 1970. Obviously not complete because no silver insignia like Steves Jacket. I think Zoll ranks are very complicated like many Beamten.
http://www.uniforminsignia.net/?opti...=53&result=686

regards
Klaus
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Old 04-12-2010, 11:21 PM   #38
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Gordon,

Klaus beat me to it with the link. Although there are thousands of detailed rank pictures and descriptions on International Encyclopedia of Uniform Insignia, it is unfortunately incomplete.

The rank shown using Klaus' link is from February 1st, 1970 until some time later. Probably 1976/78 time period since I'm pretty sure Zoll adopted the standardized rank like Polizei. At least eventually they did.

The rank in my BGS book is before Feb 1, 1970 (this is noted at the top of the description). I'd scan it but my scanner is dead and I haven't got around to getting a new one. I might be able to take a crappy digital photo of the book, but that is a two person job and that's not possible right now.

What I can tell you is that the ranks are divided into lower and higher, no middle rank. The higher ranks for land based officers are in silver with silver piping around the edges on a green background, water are gold on black. The lower ranks are all in green with green piping around the edges, water are violet on black. The post February 1970 ranks added 4 new types to the lower and 1 to the higher, but the devices are pretty similar. The only major difference is that the earlier types were diamond shaped pips (like my jackets) and the later ones "sunburst" shaped pips (like Bayern).

It is interesting to note that February 1, 1970 is listed as a date of change for Bayern, Breman (Schutzpolizei), Hesse, NRW, Rheinland-Pfalz, Saarland, and S-H. There is a note as to which type of Polizei force the rank applies to (Bereits, Landes, Schutz, Ordnungs, etc.). Only Berlin, B-W, Breman (Bereitschaft), Hamburg, and Niedersaschen are not noted to have changed on February 1, 1970.

Steve
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Old 04-13-2010, 07:05 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus1989 View Post
Gordon,
Did you win the Zoll-See jacket?

I think I was wrong with caps. I have seen a few photos and it is clear that the metal Bundesadler/wreath is first model cap (1950s-70s?) and simple Kokarde/wreath is later (1970s-90s/current?). The cloth Bundesadler version is either variant or replacement for first model cap.

Here is Zoll insignia, ca. 1970. Obviously not complete because no silver insignia like Steves Jacket. I think Zoll ranks are very complicated like many Beamten.
http://www.uniforminsignia.net/?opti...=53&result=686

regards
Klaus
Klaus,

Yes I won the Zoll See jacket. Thanks again for sending me the link to the auction.
I am not sure what caps you are talking about in your comments above.
Thanks for the Zoll rank insignia. I have been to that site before but don't remember ever seeing those Zoll ranks.
Good info to have.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 04-13-2010, 07:09 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collectinsteve View Post
Gordon,

Klaus beat me to it with the link. Although there are thousands of detailed rank pictures and descriptions on International Encyclopedia of Uniform Insignia, it is unfortunately incomplete.

The rank shown using Klaus' link is from February 1st, 1970 until some time later. Probably 1976/78 time period since I'm pretty sure Zoll adopted the standardized rank like Polizei. At least eventually they did.

The rank in my BGS book is before Feb 1, 1970 (this is noted at the top of the description). I'd scan it but my scanner is dead and I haven't got around to getting a new one. I might be able to take a crappy digital photo of the book, but that is a two person job and that's not possible right now.

What I can tell you is that the ranks are divided into lower and higher, no middle rank. The higher ranks for land based officers are in silver with silver piping around the edges on a green background, water are gold on black. The lower ranks are all in green with green piping around the edges, water are violet on black. The post February 1970 ranks added 4 new types to the lower and 1 to the higher, but the devices are pretty similar. The only major difference is that the earlier types were diamond shaped pips (like my jackets) and the later ones "sunburst" shaped pips (like Bayern).

It is interesting to note that February 1, 1970 is listed as a date of change for Bayern, Breman (Schutzpolizei), Hesse, NRW, Rheinland-Pfalz, Saarland, and S-H. There is a note as to which type of Polizei force the rank applies to (Bereits, Landes, Schutz, Ordnungs, etc.). Only Berlin, B-W, Breman (Bereitschaft), Hamburg, and Niedersaschen are not noted to have changed on February 1, 1970.

Steve
Steve,

Thanks for the info on the Zoll ranks. Too bad you can not post the pictures of the rank tables and uniform pictures from your book. I'll have to be patient I guess. I'd like to know the name etc of the book you are using for reference. Perhaps I could get a copy for myself. A picture of the cover of the book would help.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 04-13-2010, 10:19 AM   #41
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Gordon,

What I'm using is the "Bundesgrenzschutztaschenbuch", the equivalent of the Bundeswehr's "Der Riebert". It's the handbook that each BGS member had to explain the basics of his duties. Such books are wealth of information specific to the date of publication. I have two BGS handbooks, one dated 1970 and the other from around then (I forget when).

The Library of Congress has a 1965 published version:

http://openlibrary.org/b/OL2332067M/...utztaschenbuch

Steve
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:50 PM   #42
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Gordon,
The caps I mean are the visor caps you posted page 2 of this thread. You wanted to know if anyone had more information about time, etc.

regards
Klaus
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Old 04-14-2010, 08:05 PM   #43
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Gordon,

I have a possible identification of the strange green/yellow jacket that you have (which I used to own). Check out the 4th on the left:



These are all historical uniforms of Bayern. Note also that the trousers are not a match. I don't know if that's correct or not, but it is reasonable to assume the portray is indeed correct.

Steve
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Old 04-14-2010, 09:05 PM   #44
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Steve,

That is a great photo. Where did you find it? If we could only read what it says on the card attached to each uniform! There are some modern looking uniforms there that I have never seen before and which would really baffle me in research. Just a wonderful reference for Bayern. I am assuming some of them are city police while others are state police. I'll have to send this to my plice collector friend who will really enjoy it. Thanks very much for posting it. It helps with this tunic that I am bidding on

Regards.

Gordon

Last edited by Gordon Craig; 04-14-2010 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 04-15-2010, 12:40 AM   #45
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Hi Gordon,

Dang, I didn't realize that picture was so big. If you can edit my post to use URL instead of IMG tags that might be helpful to people.

The picture came from the Bayern Polizei website. This was apparently some sort of "open house day". Lots of pictures of booths, demonstrations of things, people getting looks into police cars, etc.

The uniforms are, I think, as follows:

Schutzpolizei (pre 1976)
Bereitschaftspolizei (pre 1976)
Feldgendarmerie (WWI timeframe)
Wasserschutzpolizei (post 1976)
Probably a Feldanzug for Bereitschaftspolizei (pre 1976)
Some Polizei official wearing civilian clothes
Gendarmerie (1920s era)
"Dining uniform" (pre 1976) Whites were still used by some post WW2 BRD formations, so that's my guess.
I don't know. I thought this was Wasserschutzpolizei (pre 1976), but the arm badge is puzzling!
Gendarmerie (1920s era)

Steve
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