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Flag, Pennant and Standarte Forum Wehrmacht, Political and Organizational Standards, flags, and car pennants.

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Old 02-17-2020, 02:21 PM   #16
jim10011
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I am far from an expert but if someone wanted to produce one of these and go through all the aggravation to make it look as legit as possible, who in their right mind wouldn't spend a little extra time to thread them? The goal is to make as much money as possible, right? Producing an eagle with just studs means it was never attached to a train which makes it less valuable. I would much rather have a threaded eagle that was used on a train. I am not even a machinist and I bet I could thread this with ease. And then put some rusty period nuts on it to complete the effect and get top dollar. So it makes no sense to not thread the eagle. Does that alone mean it's authentic? No, but if everything else looks period, it's something to consider when bashing eagles just because they're not threaded.
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Old 02-17-2020, 03:31 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim10011 View Post
I am far from an expert but if someone wanted to produce one of these and go through all the aggravation to make it look as legit as possible, who in their right mind wouldn't spend a little extra time to thread them? The goal is to make as much money as possible, right? Producing an eagle with just studs means it was never attached to a train which makes it less valuable.
That thought brings up another question . . . if the non-threaded examples were never attached to a train - then why do some have all that staining and deterioration we equate with being attached to a train?

If it was never attached to a train, wouldn't one expect it to be in a little better condition?
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Old 02-17-2020, 03:45 PM   #18
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That thought brings up another question . . . if the non-threaded examples were never attached to a train - then why do some have all that staining and deterioration we equate with being attached to a train?

If it was never attached to a train, wouldn't one expect it to be in a little better condition?
Age related things happen, attached to a train or not. Medals, daggers, flags etc that were never worn, used, or flown have oxidation, discoloration, tears, holes, dings etc. A lot can happen in 80 years. People had no idea how valuable these things would become so most weren't cared for like fine china.
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Old 02-17-2020, 04:17 PM   #19
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Jim, your example is good. it's the right color, texture and overall look. You can't convince everyone. There have been times where I provided so many pictures...provided the map, flashlight, shovel and even started digging...and some still don't see it. Compare the pics I provided.

Those who question (constantly), I can bet they never had the opportunity to hold machined and non-machined examples side by side. Yes, there are some fake LOK 600's floating around...this aint one of them. How theses things are stored plays a huge part in appearance.

I certainly understand questioning anything from the WW2 period and there is nothing wrong with that, and we should question....that's what this forum is for....but some go on like a broken record. Not to single anyone out, show us yours and make some visual comparisons for discussion...have something substantial....something...anything.


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Old 02-17-2020, 04:44 PM   #20
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Age related things happen, attached to a train or not. Medals, daggers, flags etc that were never worn, used, or flown have oxidation, discoloration, tears, holes, dings etc. A lot can happen in 80 years. People had no idea how valuable these things would become so most weren't cared for like fine china.
I'm with you on that. We all know about "patina", when it comes to old things. What I find most interesting is among all the other signs of use (and a lot of it it at that!), many of these eagles that were never finished at the threads bear the exact same black/brown/dark/sooty "crud" in their crevices. Why is that? To me, it seems counterintuitive to equate that kind of "crud" to be on something that has never been attached to a train. For a bird that was never used, what other kind of exposure could have created all that "patina"? Some of these birds exhibit the same kind of "crud" in the crevices - regardless of being threaded at the attachment studs or not. It may very well have been accumulated from exposure to a train - I just wonder how? And if so, could those un-threaded studs have been left that way intentionally - maybe for mounting in another fashion? Maybe even another mode of transportation? This idea has been presented before - just not very well explained or explored.
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Old 02-17-2020, 04:54 PM   #21
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I'm with you on that. We all know about "patina", when it comes to old things. What I find most interesting is among all the other signs of use (and a lot of it it at that!), many of these eagles that were never finished at the threads bear the exact same black/brown/dark/sooty "crud" in their crevices. Why is that? To me, it seems counterintuitive to equate that kind of "crud" to be on something that has never been attached to a train. For a bird that was never used, what other kind of exposure could have created all that "patina"? Some of these birds exhibit the same kind of "crud" in the crevices - regardless of being threaded at the attachment studs or not. It may very well have been accumulated from exposure to a train - I just wonder how? And if so, could those un-threaded studs have been left that way intentionally - maybe for mounting in another fashion? Maybe even another mode of transportation? This idea has been presented before - just not very well explained or explored.
Interesting point. It's possible this was indeed used. There is a hole in each stud so maybe they decided threading them and attaching with nuts wasn't the best method? Maybe a wire through the holes was an easier and faster way to mount these? I'd give anything to find out for certain.
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Old 02-17-2020, 04:56 PM   #22
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Jim, your example is good. it's the right color, texture and overall look. You can't convince everyone. There have been times where I provided so many pictures...provided the map, flashlight, shovel and even started digging...and some still don't see it. Compare the pics I provided.

Those who question (constantly), I can bet they never had the opportunity to hold machined and non-machined examples side by side. Yes, there are some fake LOK 600's floating around...this aint one of them. How theses things are stored plays a huge part in appearance.

I certainly understand questioning anything from the WW2 period and there is nothing wrong with that, and we should question....that's what this forum is for....but some go on like a broken record. Not to single anyone out, show us yours and make some visual comparisons for discussion...have something substantial....something...anything.


.
Thanks Mike I appreciate your insights. JR's and everyone's too. Even the negative ones.
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Old 02-17-2020, 06:37 PM   #23
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Please don't take my comments as negative, my only alarm is the amount of these exact same/type eagles popping up lately, I someday hope to own an eagle, but at 3 to 4K a pop it will have to be the perfect one with solid provenance, it may take 10 years but I will find it. I would feel alot more at ease about these types(unthreaded) if someone ever linked one to a direct vet bring back via photo or some other form of proof, that is just my own personal feelings.
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Old 02-17-2020, 09:47 PM   #24
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EAGLE IS FAKE.....no need too debate any more ... EC...like i said earlier ...glad u r happy ...
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Old 02-19-2020, 10:53 AM   #25
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EAGLE IS FAKE.....no need too debate any more ... EC...like i said earlier ...glad u r happy ...
This is the downside to online forums. Any novice with a computer and a book can pretend they're an expert on a topic. And then spout off like they know what they're talking about. And sometimes the ones least knowledgeable have the biggest mouths. The experts who have not only read books about these eagles but have actually owned and studied them for decades say this is authentic. Including JR, Mike, and Wittmann. I will take theirs and other's expertise over someone who bought a book any day. I welcome knowledgeable opinions that question a piece, like those from Maximus71, who said until he sees one linked to a direct vet bring back via photo or some other form of proof, that he has his concerns. But to conclude and then post eagle is fake in all caps is something a troll does, not someone with legitimate concerns searching for the truth.
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Old 02-19-2020, 11:10 AM   #26
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This is the downside to online forums. Any novice with a computer and a book can pretend they're an expert on a topic. And then spout off like they know what they're talking about. And sometimes the ones least knowledgeable have the biggest mouths. The experts who have not only read books about these eagles but have actually owned and studied them for decades say this is authentic. Including JR, Mike, and Wittmann. I will take theirs and other's expertise over someone who bought a book any day. I welcome knowledgeable opinions that question a piece, like those from Maximus71, who said until he sees one linked to a direct vet bring back via photo or some other form of proof, that he has his concerns. But to conclude and then post eagle is fake in all caps is something a troll does, not someone with legitimate concerns searching for the truth.
That bird is one looker good, I do not know why you have this one guy harping on it. He is wrong about everything 99% of the time. Not only that but the Saris book that he references came out long after others had done study on these birds, I don't know the book, cause I do not have it, but I don't need it. All things considered these books while good for information are dated the moment their published, in a hobby that evolves daily. Exceptions of course. I would not go round claiming Wittmann cleared it as he is a retard and if not careful he might put up something real on his site in that pile of crap, I told him that too. But to have this guy beating on this bird is ridiculous. Their not that hard. Some of these guys on the forums have not been held in check for a long time and they talk **** about things they know nothing about.
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Old 02-19-2020, 11:20 AM   #27
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Once again the eagle is a nice original. If it is the unthreaded studs that are bothering some, it is very possible, that these where acquired before the final machining process.

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Old 02-19-2020, 11:26 AM   #28
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That bird is one looker good, I do not know why you have this one guy harping on it. He is wrong about everything 99% of the time. Not only that but the Saris book that he references came out long after others had done study on these birds, I don't know the book, cause I do not have it, but I don't need it. All things considered these books while good for information are dated the moment their published, in a hobby that evolves daily. Exceptions of course. I would not go round claiming Wittmann cleared it as he is a retard and if not careful he might put up something real on his site in that pile of crap, I told him that too. But to have this guy beating on this bird is ridiculous. Their not that hard. Some of these guys on the forums have not been held in check for a long time and they talk **** about things they know nothing about.
I thought Wittmann's opinion was well respected? Hasn't he owned and sold quite a few eagles? I know plenty have criticized his prices but I haven't heard his expertise regarding authenticating items questioned. But I am relatively new and don't know him that well.
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Old 02-19-2020, 11:36 AM   #29
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I thought Wittmann's opinion was well respected? Hasn't he owned and sold quite a few eagles? I know plenty have criticized his prices but I haven't heard his expertise regarding authenticating items questioned. But I am relatively new and don't know him that well.
Forget about what you hear, pay attention to what you see. Take each item one by one and build a network and read these threads, thats how you learn. There is no better resource on the web than the search box on the WAF. Read it all. Dealer with a man-bun and sandals who charges no paypal fees like his competitors, look at the item. Author of Butter Dishes of the Third Reich, look at the item. 50 years experience, look at the item harder than anyone else. Honesty and integrity, look at the item. And if there is a question on an item and you read the threads, you will know who knows what about what. Don't buy a line or a referral. You buy items, one at a time.
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Old 02-19-2020, 11:44 AM   #30
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Are there any other examples of unthreaded birds that aren't a PS maker 24inch? Why would it be only this size and maker? is it possible that this (Bernhard Pinter) was the only factory left at the end of the war that had a big stack of these unfinished and GI's helped themselves? Possible I guess, I don't know the exact explanation just throwing thoughts out there, and why wouldn't fakers just thread them is a good argument, maybe just lazy or didn't have a way to thread them in metric size? I do hope I'm wrong and I do believe those who handled many RR eagles can believe these look good also, but when it comes to collecting TR, especially rare or valuable TR items you have to keep the magnifying glass on it at all times not only to protect yourself but to protect the hobby.
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