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Bundesrepublik Deutschland, 1949-Present From West Germany through to the modern reunified German Republic.

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Brotbeutel 2nd Model
Old 10-03-2019, 08:18 PM   #16
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Default Brotbeutel 2nd Model

To continue with Brotbeutel, the 2nd model is the familiar to everyone BGS model in Schwarzgrün with leather reinforcements on the belt loops. When was introduced not sure, but i suspect mid-late 50s. Sadly stamps on mine are almost unreadable.

left: stamp similar to Pausch stamps from 1963, but text is possibly different (smaller). Inside middle strap is attached backward, someone not awake in factory that day!
right: brown pebbled straps. Unknown maker, similar one on ebay recently from 1975, but not sure this one is so recent. Some numbers look like 65 and 62?
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Old 10-03-2019, 08:25 PM   #17
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Breadbag strap comparison.

above: with the 1st model bag with 2 messkit loops, but is already later darker colour. Note pebbled leather.
middle: from dark 2nd model.
bottom: from lighter 2nd model. Buckle is flatter and with opening in frame.
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Old 10-03-2019, 08:33 PM   #18
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a couple excellent colour photos from 1959 Moselübung on the BGS-Coburg site show what look like earlier and later Brotbeutel in same photo (or 2 earlier? is unclear).
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Feldflasche M31
Old 10-03-2019, 09:07 PM   #19
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Default Feldflasche M31

First canteen in BGS was copy of WW2 M31. Produced until 1960 and phased out in mid 60s, the coconut canteens never completely replaced them and production was side by side in late 50s, since Ritter was only coconut maker. Most have plain snaps on cover, sometimes maker/date stamped and sometimes no markings.

Cups are normally grey-green, which can also be seen in example from post 12 (belong to a BGS veteran) and period photos. I have seen only a few M31 with schwarzgrün cups, which were possibly replaced or repainted later. Reason is unknown, but possibly is 'universal colour' for BGS and Landespolizei?

left: no stamps, star snaps (WW2 surplus?). All other parts are typical postwar.
middle: CFL51 cup, cover and strap and replacement bottle (ESB60). Thin low quality leather strap. Cork sealer in cap (others are rubber). Not surprising for material shortages of pre-Wirtschaftswunder postwar period.
right: ESB60
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Old 10-03-2019, 09:12 PM   #20
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Details of CFL51 canteen and cups.
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Old 10-03-2019, 09:19 PM   #21
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More photo evidence of grey cups in BGS use. Yes is hard to determine in b/w photos, but some are so light, that i think it must be this colour. Also the example with proven BGS provenance show were definitely issued by BGS.
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Ritter-Flasche
Old 10-03-2019, 09:32 PM   #22
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Default Ritter-Flasche

BGS "coconut" canteens were supposedly introduced ca. 1954, but have not confirmed. Produced until ca. 1960 and still appear in photos until at least mid-60s. Early ones used sometimes recycled WW2 parts like buckles and webbing. These 2-colour straps like mine can see in some period photos. Later have press stud on back strap and web strap material like the "Modell 55" BW coconut (will post photos of this variant later, when it arrive). Some 1957 production have black leather straps and are marked like BW canteens. Postwar Ritter cups are always undated, most are schwarzgrün painted (but not always).

left: Bottle: Ritter Alfurit, DRPa [no date]. WW2 web material and buckle (HRE44).
right: HRE57 (leather strap variant)
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Old 10-03-2019, 09:35 PM   #23
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Coconut canteens Details
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Old 10-03-2019, 10:53 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus1989 View Post
i think, that Jens' canvas pouch is 1 of only 2 examples i have seen! Great photos! I remember it from older thread either here or the multiboard forum.
Jens has some really nice stuff, that's for sure

Quote:
Steve,

very odd pouches. BGS never used MP40 or a pouch with mag loader and this canvas is imo not BGS either, so not sure reason for BGS stamp, unless has other meaning. Thread look newer than leather to me, but maybe is lighting?
The thread is white and the pouches are in very good condition, but old. It is all the original stitching for sure. No signs the leather or canvas was restitched.

From what I can tell, wartime production had markings on the leather belt loops. I saw one 1943 example that had an ink stamp similar to mine, but along the back:

https://fjm44.com/articles/mp40-pouch-gmn-1943/

If my set was wartime I'd presume there would be marks on the leather. If it were a reproduction set I would also expect marks on the leather. I don't know if there was a manufacturer in WW2 that had the initials "BGS", but I've not been to find any information to confirm one existed.

What this means is my set looks to be the same as wartime production, but lacks the markings one would expect from either an original or a reproduction. What it does have is markings which seem to indicate a BGS contract.

Very puzzling. I suppose I should post the pictures to one of the wartime forums here and see what people think. I should take some better pictures before I do that.

Quote:
The only other MP mag pouch variant, that i know from BGS is 'Italian type' - Italian appearance, but not match any known Italian pouches for Beretta. It appear in 1 photo from 1954.
Interesing! If you find the picture, I'm curious to see what that looks like.

Thanks!

Steve
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Old 10-03-2019, 11:35 PM   #25
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interesting, but i am still not convinced, that it make sense for BGS: 1. BGS never adopted MP40, so why make pouches for it? The idea to adopt it was rejected very early, so no trials like with DUX-53. 2. BGS canvas colour vary in early years and not always classic 'Schwarzgrün', but this look outside the spektrum. Closer to S-H Polizei.

Here is photo of the mystery Beretta pouch, taken during the Meißner Kommandoübung in 1954. There are several photos of this squad and Gruppenführer, but only 1 show the pouch "clearly" (ok still not very clear sadly). Single rounded flap with 1 closing strap and 3 cells. Remind me of half of the 2 part mag pouches on WW2 Italian jump cover/belt. Photos of standard Beretta pouch exist from same year, so was not used long.
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Old 10-04-2019, 07:38 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus1989 View Post
interesting, but i am still not convinced, that it make sense for BGS: 1. BGS never adopted MP40, so why make pouches for it? The idea to adopt it was rejected very early, so no trials like with DUX-53. 2. BGS canvas colour vary in early years and not always classic 'Schwarzgrün', but this look outside the spektrum. Closer to S-H Polizei.
I'm not convinced it is BGS either If it *is* BGS, there are only two possibilities I can imagine:

1. As the BGS was starting to form, but had not yet formed, the original idea was to use the MP40 alongside the other surplus WW2 weapons. The idea went as far as contracting with a manufacturer to make some sample pouches.

2. As the BGS was starting to form, a manufacturer who made pouches in WW2 (or had the tooling) submitted some on speculation of getting a contract. Possibly because BGS was contemplating MP40 use, possibly because the manufacturer simply sent something as evidence of competency (in modern times I've seen samples sent by contractors to the BW that were not BW designs, for example).

The problems with both theories is we've not heard of the BGS contemplating using the MP40 (though it is possible) and that in either case that would likely make my pouch set a "one of a kind" (also possible, as collectively we advanced collectors have many "one of a kind" items). So I say POSSIBLE, but I still do not think PROBABLE.

There is similar issues with the theory that the pouches are wartime production or reproductions. Another post in the right place might help out on that.

Which leaves me in the same spot I've been for years... no idea what they are

Quote:
Here is photo of the mystery Beretta pouch, taken during the Meißner Kommandoübung in 1954. There are several photos of this squad and Gruppenführer, but only 1 show the pouch "clearly" (ok still not very clear sadly). Single rounded flap with 1 closing strap and 3 cells. Remind me of half of the 2 part mag pouches on WW2 Italian jump cover/belt. Photos of standard Beretta pouch exist from same year, so was not used long.
Thanks for that! Yes, the single large flap can be seen clearly even if no other details are. Maybe a trial that was rejected?

Steve
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Old 10-04-2019, 02:38 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collectinsteve View Post
The problems with both theories is we've not heard of the BGS contemplating using the MP40 (though it is possible) and that in either case that would likely make my pouch set a "one of a kind" (also possible, as collectively we advanced collectors have many "one of a kind" items). So I say POSSIBLE, but I still do not think PROBABLE.
I read somewhere (forget now where), that the idea to adopt MP40 was rejected almost immediately, because it was considered obsolete and too expensive to restart production, especially with short notice. Of course "obsolete" was not problem in Austria or Norway, so is interesting argument. Beretta 38/49 was of course also wartime design, but was improved postwar, so could explain why BGS considered it "modern".


Quote:
Thanks for that! Yes, the single large flap can be seen clearly even if no other details are. Maybe a trial that was rejected?

Steve
Or possibly unknown Italian export pouch, that sent with the guns and quickly replaced? Could explain the look. Not sure we will ever know.

Klaus
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Messkits
Old 10-04-2019, 08:15 PM   #28
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Default Messkits

first messkits were almost identical copy of wartime M31 and also only 2 piece. Sometime in mid 50s was introduced the insert. It seem, that some WW2 parts were recycled, at least a handle is known. Production seem to stop 1959. 1961 was adopted the same tall messkit as the BW. However 1962-66 (or 68?) was produced a unique short type only by ESB with side riveted handle wire attachments for only BGS and West Berlin (in blue). Strangely ESB produced the tall messkits briefly in 1961 before it switched to this model! Both later types remained in use together until 80s/90s.

Early 50s paint is similar odd grey colour like the early M31 canteen cups. Mid 50s is schwarzgrün paint, this would match introduction time of coconut canteens, which also normally use this colour for cups.

Makers: CFL = Carl Feldhaus Aluminium- und Metallwerke, Lüdenscheid; PSL = Paul Schulze, Lübeck; ESB = Ed. Sommerfeld, Berlin; CWE = ?

above row l. to r. (all M31)
- CFL51: very burned, but original paint is grey
- CFL51: grey green, match the CFL51 canteen cups. Lid handle is recycled WW2 (WaA stamped!)
- CFL56: familiar schwarzgrün paint, internal insert

below row l. to r.
- ESB62
- ESB64 (with replaced lid CWE51)
- ESB61 tall model lid with replaced PSL59 M31 bottom. Original tall bottom would have swivel handle attachments like BW.
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Last edited by Klaus1989; 10-04-2019 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 10-04-2019, 08:19 PM   #29
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WaA stamp on handle of CFL51 messkit. Probably would not notice it, if paint was not damaged here.
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GM54 Can
Old 10-04-2019, 09:29 PM   #30
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Default GM54 Can

Gasmask can for GM54 was copy of WW2. Replaced later in 60s by taller 1959 model from BW. Gasmasks were not always worn, but only issued for ABC training and certain exercises, so rare to see in photos. Auer seem to be only maker and no date stamps. Ink stamps in lid ("BMdI" and Bundesadler). Issued with green straps, but sometimes seen with replacement straps in BW olive colour. Unlike BW, not issued with cloth can covers or chest pouch for gascape.

1955 dated photo from my collection show the cans in field.
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