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Panzer Ace?
Old 08-22-2004, 07:43 AM   #1
Marc Garlasco
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Default Panzer Ace?

So, what was the criteria to be considered a Panzer Ace?
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Old 08-24-2004, 12:12 AM   #2
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Determined by the amount of tanks destroyed in single combat and individual campaigns, also determined by the overall amount of tanks destroyed by any single tank commander.
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Old 08-24-2004, 08:18 AM   #3
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Trent,
So was there no baseline as in the Luftwaffe? And how many "Panzer Aces" were there?
Marc
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Old 08-24-2004, 12:18 PM   #4
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I found two lists some names are repeated....



1. Knispel, Kurt, SS-Unterführer: 168 Abschüsse (schw.SS-PzAbt. 503) - Königstiger
Abschüsse: 42 als Kommandant, 126 als Panzerschütze
2. Carius, Otto: mehr als 150 Abschüsse (schw.PzAbt. 502) - Tiger I - Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub
laut Günter Wegmann: 68 Abschüsse
3. Bölter, Johannes (Hans): 139 Abschüsse (144 möglich) (schw.PzAbt. 502) Tiger - Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub
4. Wittmann, Michael: 138 Abschüsse (schw.SS.PzAbt. 101, SS-PR 1 LAH) - Tiger I - Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub und Schwertern
5. Sandrock, Hans: 123 Abschüsse (Fsch.Pz.Rgt “HG“, Fsch.StuG.Abt. “HG“, zuletzt HJ-Einheit) - Ritterkreuz
6. Egger, Paul: 113 Abschüsse (schw.SS Pz. Abt. 102/502) - Tiger - Ritterkreuz (5 Sonder-abzeichen)
7. Lang, Fritz, Wachtmeister: 113 Abschüsse (3. / Stu.Gesch.Brig. 232) - Anerkennungsurkunde ObdH
8. Giesen, Arno, SS-Unterführer: 111 Abschüsse (SS “Das Reich“)
9. Rondorf, Oberfähnrich: 106 Abschüsse (schw.SS-PzAbt. 503) - Königstiger
10. Gärtner, Feldwebel: 103 Abschüsse (schw.SS-PzAbt. 503) - Königstiger
11. Körner, Karl: mehr als 100 Abschüsse (schw. SS-PzAbt. 503) - Königstiger - Ritterkreuz
12. Kerscher, Albert: mehr als 100 Abschüsse (schw.PzAbt. 502) - Tiger - Ritterkreuz
13. Woll, Balthasar (Bobby): mehr als 100 Abschüsse, 81 als Panzerschütze (13. / SS-PR 1; schw.SS-Pz.Abt. 101) - Ritterkreuz
14. Wendorff, Helmut: 84 Abschüsse (schw. SS-PR 1 LAH, schw.SS-Pz Abt.101) - Tiger - Ritterkreuz
15. Barkmann, Ernst: mehr als 82 Abschüsse (SS-PR 2 “Das Reich“) - Panther - Ritterkreuz
16. Litzke, Erich: 76 Abschüsse (schw.PzAbt. 509) Tiger - Ritterkreuz
17. Bix, Hermann: mehr als 75 Abschüsse (PR 35, 4. PD) - Ritterkreuz
18. Strippel, Hans: 70 Abschüsse (PR 1) - Pz. IV - Ritterkreuz
19. Seibold, Emil: 69 Abschüsse (SS-PR 2 “Das Reich“) - Pz IV und Beute-T-34 - Ritterkreuz
20. Knauth, Dr. Wilhelm: 68 Abschüsse (PzAbt. 505) - Tiger - Ritterkreuz
21. Primozic, Hugo: 68 Abschüsse (StuG.Abt. 667) - Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub
22. Brommann, Karl: 66 Abschüsse (schw.SS.PzAbt. 503) - Königstiger - Ritterkreuz
23. Brandner, Josef (Sepp): 61 Abschüsse (StuG.Brig. 912) - Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub
24. Rohr, Hans-Babo von: 58 Abschüsse (PR 25) - Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub (posthum)
25. Warmbrunn, Karl Heinz, SS-Untersturmführer: 57 Abschüsse, 44 als Panzerschütze (schw.SS-Pz. Abt. 101) - Tiger
26. Ernst, Albert: 55 Abschüsse (schw.Pz.Jäger-Abt. 519) - Nashorn - Ritterkreuz
27. Engelmann, Richard: 54 Abschüsse (StuG.Abt. 912) - Ritterkreuz
28. Stier, Gottwald: 53 Abschüsse (StuG.Abt. 667) - Ritterkreuz
29. Kling, Heinz: 51 Abschüsse (SS-PR 1, SS-PR 12, schw.SS-Pz.Abt. 501) - Tiger - Ritterkreuz
30. Müller, Johann: 50 Abschüsse (Pz.Jäg.Abt. 502 [mot]) - Ritterkreuz
31. Dallmeier, Josef: 50 Abschüsse (Fhr. Pz.Jäger-Kp. 1183 / 6. VGD) - Hetzer - Ritterkreuz
32. Feibig, Walter: mehr als 50 Abschüsse (StuG.Brig. 301)
33. Kramer, Heinz: mehr als 50 Abschüsse (schw.Pz.Abt. 502) - Tiger - Ritterkreuz
34. Carpaneto, Alfredo: mehr als 50 Abschüsse (schw.Pz.Abt. 502) - Tiger - Ritterkreuz (dabei Angabe im Verleihungsvorschlag: Gesamtabschüsse 35)
35. Mausberg, Heinz, Feldwebel: mehr als 50 Abschüsse (3. / schw.Pz.Abt. 505) - Tiger
36. Adamowitsch, Felix: mindestens 50 Abschüsse (StuG.brig. 904) - Ritterkreuz

37. Bostell, Wolfgang Hans Heimer Paul von: 48 Abschüsse - (Pz.Jäger-Kp. 1023, Pz.Jäger-Abt. 205) - Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub
38. Brandt, Jürgen: 47 Abschüsse (schw.SS-Pz.Abt. 101) - Tiger.
39. Deutsch, Heinz: 44 Abschüsse (Fsch.StuG.Brig. 12) - Ritterkreuz
40. Pfreundtner, Karl: mindestens 43 Abschüsse (StuG.Abt. 244) - Ritterkreuz
41. Amling, Fritz: mehr als 42 Abschüsse (in 48 Std. mit StuG.Abt. 202) - Ritterkreuz
42. Scharf, Heinz: mehr als 40 Abschüsse (StuG.Brig. 202) - Ritterkreuz
43. Oberloskamp, Walther: mehr als 40 Abschüsse (StuG.Abt. 667) - Ritterkreuz
44. Tadje, Fritz: 39 Abschüsse (StuG.Abt. 190) - Ritterkreuz
45. Roy, Rudolf: 36 Abschüsse (SS-Pz.Jäg.Abt. 12 “HJ“) - JagdPz. IV - Ritterkreuz
46. Trägner, Josef: 30 Abschüsse (StuG.Brig. 667) - Ritterkreuz
47. Schramm, Richard: mindestens 30 Abschüsse (StuG.Brig. 202) - Ritterkreuz
48. Banze, Karl Heinrich: 27 Abschüsse (13 an einem Tag, StuG.Abt. 244) - Ritterkreuz
49. Naumann, Horst: 26 Abschüsse (StuG.Abt. 184) - Ritterkreuz
50. Metzger, Eugen: 23 Abschüsse (StuG.Abt. 203) - Ritterkreuz
51. Rade, Hans Dietrich: 23 Abschüsse (StuG.Abt. 244) - Deutsches Kreuz in Gold
52. Teriete, Heinrich: mindestens 22 Abschüsse (schw.Pz.Jg.Abt. 635) - Ritterkreuz
53. Staudegger, Franz: mehr als 22 Abschüsse (SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 “LSSAH“) - Ritterkreuz
54. Kretschmer, Franz: 21 Abschüsse (schw.Pz.Jäg.Rgt. 656) - Ritterkreuz
55. Wagner, Klaus: 18 Abschüsse (in 2 Tagen, StuG.Abt. 667)
56. Feldheim, Hermann: 16 Abschüsse (schw.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654)
57. Engel, Heinrich: 15 Abschüsse (StuG.Abt. 259) - Ritterkreuz
58. Ribbentrop, Rudolf von: 14 Abschüsse (SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 “LSSAH“) - Ritterkreuz
59. Moj, Wachtmeister: 12 Abschüsse (StuG.Abt. 190)
60. Freyer, Siegfried: 11 Abschüsse an einem Tag (Pz. Rgt. 24) - Ritterkreuz
61. Regeniter, Dr. med. Alfred - 10 Abschüsse (StuG.Abt. 276) - Ritterkreuz

and this list

KNISPEL, Kurt * K's = 162 to 168 * > (s.Pz.Abt.503) <
CARIUS, Otto * K's = 150 plus * > (s.Pz.Abt.502) < RK: 4-May-44 OL: 27-Jul-44
BOELTER, Johannes * K's = 139 to 144 * > (s.Pz.Abt.502) < RK: 16-Apr-44 OL: 10-Sep-44
WITTMAN, Michael * K's = 138 * > (SSPz.Rgt.1 / s.SSPz.Abt.101) < RK: 14-Jan-44 OL: 30-Jan-44 Swd: 22-Jun-44
SANDROCK, Hans * K's = 123 * > (SSPz.Rgt.12 - "HJ") <
EGGER, Paul * K's = 113 * > (s.SSPz.Abt.502) < RK: 29-Apr-45
LANG, Fritz * K's = 113 * > (StuG.Abt.232) <
GIESEN, Arno * K's = 111 * > (2 SSPz.Div. - "DR") <
RONDORFF, Hans * K's = 106 * > (s.Pz.Abt.503) <
GAERTNER, Johann * K's = 103 * > (s.Pz.Abt.503) <
KERSCHER, Albert * K's = 100 plus * > (s.Pz.Abt.502) < RK: 23-Oct-44
KOERNER, Karl * K's = 100 plus * > (s.SSPz.Abt.503) < RK: 29-Apr-44
WOLL, Balthazar * K's = 100 plus * > (SSPz.Rgt.1 / s.SSPz.Abt.101) < RK: 16-Jan-44
WENDORFF, Helmut * K's = 84 * > (SSPz.Rgt.1 / s.SSPz.Abt.101) < RK: 12-Feb-44
BARKMANN, Ernst * K's = 82 plus * > (SSPz.Rgt.2. - "DR") < RK: 27-Aug-44
OSCHA, Heinrich Warnick * K's = 77 * > (SSPz.Rgt.2 - "DR") <
LITZKE, Erich * K's = 76 * > (s.SSPz.Abt.509) < RK: 20-Oct-44
BIX, Hermann * K's = 75 plus * > (Pz.Rgt.35 - 4 Pz.Div.) < RK: 22-Mar-45
LUITHLE, ?? * K's = 70 plus * > (Grossdeutschland Div.) <
OSCHA, Hubert Ludwig * K's = 70 plus * > (SSPz.Rgt.2 - "DR") <
STRIPPEL, Hans * K's = 70 plus * > (Pz.Rgt.1 - 1 Pz.Div.) < RK: 22-Jan-43 OL: 4-Jun-44
SEIBOLD, Emil * K's = 69 * > (SSPz.Rgt.2. - "DR") < RK: 6-May-44
FEY, Willi * K's = 68 * > (s.SSPz.Abt.102) < RK: 29-Apr-45
KNAUTH, Wilhelm * K's = 68 * > (s.Pz.Abt.505) < RK: 14-Nov-43
PRIMOZIC, Hugo * K's = 68 * > (StuG.Abt.667) < RK: 19-Sep-42 OL: 25-Jan-43
BROMMANN, Karl * K's = 66 to 75 * > (s.SSPz.Abt.503) < RK: 29-Apr-45
WEISSHEIMER, Albert * K's = 65 * > (s.SSPz.Abt.501) <
LARSEN, Rudof * K's = 63 plus * > (Grossdeutschland Div.) <
BRANDNER, Joseph William * K's = 61 * > (StuG.Brig.912) < RK: 17-Mar-45 OL: 26-Apr-45
ROHR, Hans-Babo v. * K's = 58 * > (Pz.Abt.25 7 Pz.Div.) < RK: 15-Nov-44 OL: 24-Feb-45
WARMBRUNN, Karl-Heinz * K's = 57 * > (SSPz.Rgt.1 / s.SSPz.Abt.101) <
ERNST, Albert * K's = 55 * > (s.Pz.Jag.Abt.519) < RK: 22-Jan-44
ENGELMANN, Richard * K's = 54 * > (StuG.Brig.912) < RK: 27-Jul-44
HEUBECK, Konrad * K's = 52 * > (1 SSPz.Div. - "LSSAH") < RK: 17-Apr-45
KLING, Heinz * K's = 51 * > (SSPz.Rgt.1 / s.SSPz.Abt.101) < RK: 23-Feb-44
CARPANETO, Alfredo * K's = 50 plus * > (s.Pz.Jag.Abt.502) < RK: 28-Mar-45
DALLMEIER, Josef * K's = 50 * > (1183 Pz.Jag.Kp. - 6 VGDiv.) < RK: 28-Mar-45
FEIBIG, Walter * K's = 50 plus * > (StuG.Brig.301) <
KRAMER, Heinz * K's = 50 plus * > (s.Pz.Jag.Abt.502) < RK: 6-Oct-44
KROENKE, Horst * K's = 50 * > (s.Pz.Abt.503 / s.PzAbt.505) <
MAUSBERG, Karl * K's = 50 plus * > (s.Pz.Abt.505) <
SCHAFER, Oskar * K's = 50 plus * > (s.SSPz.Abt.503) < RK: 29-Apr-45
ROEDER, Paul * K's = 49 * > (Pz."Lehr" Div.) <
BOSTELL, Wolfgang Hans v. * K's = 48 * > (Pz.Jag.Abt.205) < RK: 2-Sep-44 OL: 30-Apr-45
STUBAF, Paul * K's = 48 * > (s.Pz.Abt.508) <
BRANDT, Jurgen * K's = 47 * > (s.SSPz.Abt.101) <
WEISSFLOG (Weißflog), Hans-Joachim * K's = 47 plus * > (Pz.Rgt.16 - 116.Pz.Div.) < RK: 5-Mar-45
CASSELHEIM, Franck * K's = 46 * > (Grossdeutschland Div.) <
DEUTSCH, Heinz * K's = 44 * > (Fsch.StuG.Brig.12) < RK: 28-Apr-45
AMLING, Fritz * K's = 42 * > (StuG.Abt.202) < RK: 11-Dec-42
HIMMELSKAMP, Bernhard * K's = 40 * > (4 Pz.Div.) < RK: 13-Sep-43
OBERLOSKAMP, Walther * K's = 40 plus * > (StuG.Brig.667) < RK: 10-May-43
RIEDEL, Franz * K's = 40 plus * > (SSPz.Rgt.10 - "Frndsbrg") < RK: 28-Mar-45
SCHARF, Heinz * K's = 40 plus * > (StuG.Brig.202) < RK: 17-Aug-44
TADJE, Friedrich * K's = 39 * > (StuG.Abt.190 / StuG.Brig.190) < RK: 21-Oct-42
PRZEDWOJEWSKI , Felix * K's = 38 plus * > (SS-StugAbt.3 - 3.SS-Pz.Div.) < RK: 16-Dec-43
DIETER, Gert * K's = 36 * > (Pz."Lehr" Div.) <
HERZIG, Johann * K's = 36 * > (s.Pz.Abt.508) <
ROY, Rudolf * K's = 36 * > (SSPz.Jag.Abt.12 - "HJ") < RK: 16-Oct-42
DAUSER, Hans * K's = 34 plus * > (SSPz.Rgt.1 - "LSSAH") < RK: 4-Jun-44
BURMESTER, Martin * K's = 30 * > (s.Pz.Abt.503) <
PFEUDTNER, Karl * K's = 30 * > (StuG.Abt.244) < RK: 10-Sep-42
ROSEN, Richard von * K's = 30 * > (s.Pz.Abt.503) <
SCHRAM, Richard * K's = 30 * > (StuG.Abt.202) < RK: 23-Dec-42
SENGHAS, Paul * K's = 30 plus * > (SSPz.Rgt.5 - "Wiking") < RK: 11-Dec-44
STIER, Gottwald * K's = 30 plus * > (StuG.Abt.667 / StuG.Brig.667) < RK: 13-Aug-43
TRAEGNER, Josef * K's = 30 plus * > (StuG.Abt.667) < RK: 23-Aug-43
MENNEL, Hans * K's = 25 plus * > (2 SSPz.Div. - "DR") <
BANZE, Karl-Heinrich * K's = 24 * > (StuG.Abt.244) < RK: 27-May-42
ADAMOWITSCH, Felix * K's = 23 * > (StuG.Abt.244 / StuG.Brig.904) < RK: 20-Oct-44
METZGER, Eugen * K's = 23 * > (StuG.Abt.203) < RK: 29-Sep-41
RADE, ?? * K's = 23 * > (StuG.Abt.244) <
MOOYMAN, Gerardus * K's = 22 plus * > (14 SSDiv. - "Nederland") < RK: 20-Feb-43
STAUDEGGER, Franz * K's = 22 to 35 * > (SSPz.Rgt.1 / SSPz.Abt.101) < RK: 10-Jul-43
TERIETE, Heinrich * K's = 22 * > (s.Pz.Jag.Abt.635) < RK: 22-Jul-43
KRETSCHMER, Franz * K's = 21 * > (Pz.Jag.Rgt.653) < RK: 17-Dec-43
NAUMANN, Horst * K's = 21 * > (StuG.Abt.184) < RK: 4-Jan-43
VIEZENZ, Günther * K's = 21 * > (10./Gren.Rgt.7) < RK: 7-Jan-44
HENKE, Fritz * K's = 20 plus * > (SSStuG.Abt.1 - "LSSAH") < RK: 12-Feb-44
MALKOMES, Hans * K's = 20 plus * > (SSPz.Rgt.1 - "LSSAH") < RK: 31-Oct-44
DAHLKEM, ?? * K's = 19 plus * > (SSPz.Rgt.9 - "Hohen") <
WAGNER, Klaus * K's = 18 * > (StuG.Abt.667) < RK: 4-Sep-42
FELDHEIM, Hermann * K's = 16 * > (s.Pz.Jag.Abt.654) <
ENGEL, Heinrich * K's = 15 * > (StuG.Abt.259) < RK: 2-Nov-43
GUSSNERLACH, ?? * K's = 15 plus * > (SSPz.Rgt.9 - "Hohen") <
RIBBENTROP, Rudolf von * K's = 14 * > (1 / 12 SSPz.Divs.) < RK: 2-Jul-43
CHRISTEN, Fritz * K's = 13 * > (SSPz.Jag.Abt.3 - "Toten") < RK: 20-Oct-41
BRUINS, Derk Elsko * K's = 12 * > (SSPz.Jag.Abt.54 - "Nederland") < RK: 23-Aug-44
MOJ, ?? * K's = 12 * > (StuG.Abt.190) <
FREYER, Siegfried * K's = 11 * > (Pz.Abt.24) < RK: 23-Jul-43
RAGINITOR, Alfred * K's = 10 * > (StuG.Abt.279 / StuG.Brig.276) < RK: 5-Apr-45

and the last ACE against the Tank, Stuka pilot Hans-Ulrich Rudel with over 519 soviet tank kills..

With so much difference in kill ratio-I concure with nellyp51 on criteria for being a tank ace
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Old 08-24-2004, 12:37 PM   #5
Matt L
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flak88
Trent,
So was there no baseline as in the Luftwaffe? And how many "Panzer Aces" were there?
Marc
There was no baseline in the Luftwaffe- 5 kills=Ace is an Allied thing. The Luftwaffe had simply Experten who were successful- in a relative sense.

Matt
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Old 08-24-2004, 01:07 PM   #6
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Thank you for the detailed list. It was very illuminating on the process of making a hero if you can decipher my vieled reference in that statement. Knispel, Kurt, SS-Unterführer seems to have escaped the spotlight eh?

I concur with the baseline on what makes an 'Ace' in terms of both air and armored combat. The Luftwaffe did not have the rotation schedule the allies did which accounts for the amazing number of kills by Luftwaffe pilots vs. 3-5 kills by allied pilots. Kill recognition criteria was different as well.

In addition you need to look at the award criteria for the Panzer Assault Badge. There was no equivelant badge in the American army recognizing numbers of engagements participated in or one that measured the difference between armor vs armor or generalized support of an engagement against non armored targets say infantry in the open or antitank positions. In other words, the difference between a Panzer Assault Badge and General Assault Badge.

I would be very interested in hearing of the reverse of the coin. I hear a great deal these days about Wittman and Carius who seem to have won the spotlight for historians but who in the Soviet tank guards was the 'Ace'..who in the British, American, Polish, Canadian camp was considered the armored 'Ace' and what was their kill tally?

Good thread.
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Old 08-24-2004, 04:36 PM   #7
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Hi Lloyd,

In the US Army in WWII, the tanker ace-of-aces is considered to be SSG Lafayette Pool of the 32rd Armored Regiment, 3rd Armored Division. Between 29 Jun 44 when he was first engaged in Normandy until 19 Sep 44 when he was wounded badly enough to not be in combat again, Pool is said to have destroyed 258 German vehicles.

http://www.3ad.org/wwii_heroes/pool_..._ordnance1.htm

The link is to an article in the Journal of Military Ordnance reprinted on the 3 AD veterans association site. This total of 258 German vehicles destroyed seems incredible in a Sherman in 80 days, but the US Army sources state that it's accurate. They must have been counting anything that could remotely be said to resemble a "vehicle!"

Regards,
Greg
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TOP--U.S. tank ace
Old 08-24-2004, 04:40 PM   #8
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Default TOP--U.S. tank ace


SSgt. Lafayette Pool - U.S.A./3AD
Regarded by most as the U.S. Army's best tank-crew and tank-platoon commander in WWII
Texas born and raised, Lafayette G. "Lafe" Pool (1919-1990) is to U.S. tankers what Richard Bong and David McCampbell were to the USAAF and US Navy - their "Top Gun." He served with the 3rd Platoon, "I" Company, 32nd Armored Regiment, 3AD from 1941 to 1944. During a brief 83 days in combat in France, Belgium and Germany, Pool and his tank crew were credited with destroying 258 enemy vehicles, including tanks, self-propelled guns, and armored cars. He and his cew killed over 1,000 enemy soldiers and took over 250 prisoners.
His was the point tank in 21 full-scale engagements, and he survived many harrowing close calls with death. Fighting from three different Sherman tanks, Pool and his crew knocked out no less than 12 German tanks, most of which were theoretically superior to the Shermans in terms of armor and firepower.

Pool was twice recommended for the Medal of Honor, but an "infantry" mentality Army recommendation board decided since tanks were crew-served weapons, he did not deserve the Medal. Pool was awarded nearly every other medal the U.S. Army gave, including the Distinguished Service Cross, the Legion of Merit, the Silver Star, Belgian Fourragère, and the French Legion of Honor.

In his last battle, on Septmeber 19, 1944, near Stolberg, Germany, Pool was blown from the turret of his tank from a double-hit by German shells. Severely wounded, but fully conscious, he was rushed to a medical unit, but would eventually lose a leg. He was angry about having to leave the war "way too soon, " he later said. He told a Stars & Stripes reporter, "I was just getting started. This isn't fair." Given a prosthesis, he returned to active duty in 1948 and served until 1962, retiring as a Chief Warrant Officer.

Lafayette Pool died in 1991 and is buried at the military cemetery on Fort Sam Houston, Texas. He left a wife, three sons, and three daughters. Pool's oldest son, 1st Lt. Jerry L. Pool, Army Special Forces Green Beret, was reported missing in Cambodia in March, 1970, and was declared dead in 1978.

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Old 08-24-2004, 04:42 PM   #9
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Oops see you beat me to it Greg...
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Soviet Tank Aces
Old 08-24-2004, 05:00 PM   #10
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Default Soviet Tank Aces

Perhaps most known is Lieutenant Dmitriy Lavrinenko, who scored 52 victories in 28 engagements before he was killed defending Moscow in 1941 while serving in the division under command of General Panfilov.
Dmitriy Lavrinenko > was born in 1914 in a small village near Krasnodar. Probably, the name of the village, Besstrashnaya/Fearless, reflected in Dmitriy. Totaling 52 kills, Lavrinenko started his count under Orel and Mzensk. 3 tanks were killed under him in process. In October of 1941 his T-34 destroyed 16 German tanks in a single combat.
Lavrinenko was honored the Hero of the Soviet Union in 1985
Dashinskiy . On 3 October 1942 Dashinskiy destroyed 6 tanks, 18 guns, 6 mortars and a few dozens of infantry in the battle in the Don area.
Zinovij Kolobanov in his KV claimed a record on 19 August 1941 under Leningrad by destroying in 3 hours combat 22 German tanks. KV withstood 135 hits.

On 13 July 1943 Semen Konovalov in his KV destroyed under Rostov/Don 16 tanks, 2 armored cars, 8 trucks.
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Old 08-25-2004, 06:45 AM   #11
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I really have to wonder about the Soviet claims of 16, 16 and 22 German tanks knocked-out in single engagements- my recollection of having read of such catastrophic losses is nil. I mean that's at least an entire Kompanie and part of a second that was supposedly lost... I can't believe that I've never heard of that happening THREE TIMES. Does anyone know which units were wiped out by a single T34 and KVIs? They must be including vehicles hit and abandoned, tracks taken off, etc. In 1941, that must have included Panzer IIs IIIs, and 38(t)s- and indeed it was in the days of the 3.7cm 'Einklopfkanone', so before the days of those kind of numbers of T34s destroyed in single engagements...

Poole's record is stated '258 enemy vehicles, including tanks, self-propelled guns, and armored cars' (my italics), and then clarified that of that number, only 12 were tanks- it's a perfect illustration of how, because of the rather large number of target-types and roles a tank might be called on to perform, it needn't be a large number of tanks knocked-out that determines how successful or experienced a tank crew was.

Interestingly, one rarely sees an entire 'score' mentioned when discussing tank 'aces'- Michael Wittmann, as many of you will probably remember, is actually said to have considered anti-tank guns to be a far more deadly foe than another tank and thus more worthy of consideration as a 'kill'.

Matt

Last edited by Matt L; 08-25-2004 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 08-27-2004, 04:12 AM   #12
Stirling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd I.
Kill recognition criteria was different as well.
What do you mean by this Lloyd? are you suggesting that the luftwaffe requirement for a kill were more or less exstensive than the allies?

on the subject of tank aces, I'm reading a book of first hand accounts from allied and axis tankers and it has one fellow Lieutenant Aleksey Yerokin (unit not stated in the book) who claims to have destroyed six ferdinands at Kursk with his T-34/76. All he says with repeated flank shots (4 or 5+) which would supposedly set the auxiliary fuel tank alight even though they did not accually penetrate (this was discovered after investigating the first one they KO'ed).

Can violent shell strikes really cause fuel to ignight? (some sort of concusion effect surely?)

How about that hans-ulrich rudel, eh? Amazing. didn't he destroy like 14 bridges too? does he have any air to air kills?

Stirling
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Old 08-27-2004, 10:28 AM   #13
Lloyd I.
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Please correct me if my memory is faulty here folks.

I believe in the Allied camp other than the pilot there had to be two witnesses before a kill was credited. That way no buddy system would be working. Zippo and Gessipe there for couldnt go, 'You'll get an ME109 this time out and next mission you give me a FW190.'

For the Luftwaffe, if I'm remembering right, a wingman would confirm and if not then another in the flight. Gun camera footage worked for all.

No matter what, there is an honor system to all this. There also is a 'hero system' to this. There is some truth to it of course but how much is embellishment after the fact and Hero making?

From what scant little I was able to find out after reading this thread and discovering Knispel I read he wasnt a playboy or someone who followed the system to a T. He seems to have had a disregard for orders and the chain of command from scant online sources so never won despite repeated recommendation the Knights Cross. Wittman doesnt seem to have suffered disregard and therefore gets all this glory. Wittman dies in a tank with 007 on the turret, he does remarkable work in Villers-Bocage. Where are Knispels glories or exploits. What is his legacy? Ohh, he died one month before the war ended...that is exactly as I read it. No details of an armor ambush, no controversy surrounding the end...just that he died. Thanks.
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German tank losses!
Old 08-13-2005, 12:32 PM   #14
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Default German tank losses!

Hello,

60% of the german losses were air attacks on the way to the front. So your guys had a very low chance to meet german tanks in combat. Most tanks on the front were blown up by aircraft or left alone without fuel. My father told me, that american troops always retired if they were meeting german tanks and sent the airforce.

Kind regards

Köhler
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Old 08-14-2005, 02:28 PM   #15
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I believe Rudel had something like 7 Air victories though I have also read accounts as high as 12.(Guess I will have to read his book again) He is also credited with the destruction of a Russian Battleship.
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