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Heer Uniforms and Insignia Forum Uniforms, insignias and armbands.

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Old 03-24-2020, 09:36 PM   #31
Hptm. Fuhrmann
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WB is supposed to stand for 'Wiener Bekleidungsamt', so that fits in with the notion that the work has been done by an austrian tailor, maybe one with a background in austrian uniform making.
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Old 03-24-2020, 10:14 PM   #32
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To follow up as I mentioned.
I checked Wiesbaden, the center for the XII Armee Corp, and there was no Bekleidungsamt listed. I found that about 1/2 of the corps (or slightly less) also contained a Bekleidungsamt under their control. I cannot confirm what the B in WB represents. I first noticed this abbreviation used in Vienna made uniform items back in the late 70s. Back in those days I never met a uniform collector who knew the letters represented depot locations although I’m sure those still around today will all say they knew that!
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Old 03-25-2020, 04:31 AM   #33
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So just to summarize, the consensus seems to be:

M40 tunic;
that came from the Vienna Depot;
was acquired by a lieutenant - probably an Austrian;
who had it extensively re-tailored by a professional tailor probably also Austrian;

The re-tailoring consists of:
- new liner (lacking bandage pocket (was never there) with Austrian style ribs (not sure what to call these);
- addition of new collar with officer tabs;
- removal of the belt support hook eyelets;
- removal of strap attachment and sew in Lt boards
- removal of EM eagle and attachment of bullion officer one.

Last edited by kaiserwilhelm2; 03-25-2020 at 04:37 AM.
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Old 03-25-2020, 04:38 AM   #34
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...and the addition of a sword slit, to complete the transition to a leave or liberty tunic. This one is a real treat to see.

s/f Robert
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Old 03-25-2020, 05:09 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertE View Post
...and the addition of a sword slit, to complete the transition to a leave or liberty tunic. This one is a real treat to see.

s/f Robert
Yes you are right - forgot to include that one (just so much re-tailoring).
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Old 03-25-2020, 06:54 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiserwilhelm2 View Post
So just to summarize, the consensus seems to be:

M40 tunic;
that came from the Vienna Depot;
was acquired by a lieutenant - probably an Austrian;
who had it extensively re-tailored by a professional tailor probably also Austrian;

The re-tailoring consists of:
- new liner (lacking bandage pocket (was never there) with Austrian style ribs (not sure what to call these);
- addition of new collar with officer tabs;
- removal of the belt support hook eyelets;
- removal of strap attachment and sew in Lt boards
- removal of EM eagle and attachment of bullion officer one.

This Officer must have had a huge wad of cash to burn to waist all that money paying a tailor to do all that work to an M40, when he could have just had an officer tunic made from scratch?
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Old 03-25-2020, 07:22 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonderkommando View Post
This Officer must have had a huge wad of cash to burn to waist all that money paying a tailor to do all that work to an M40, when he could have just had an officer tunic made from scratch?
I am thinking two things:

a) he may have had this done late war when it was easier to have a tunic converted than to have a new made but this is speculation on my part.

b) I think this was still the cheaper option than have a whole tunic made from scratch as this is IMO more work than re-tailoring.
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Old 03-25-2020, 08:50 AM   #38
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Vienna is thought to have been only "W", no other codes had "B" added as they were all related to the Bekleidungsamt system aside from WBr. which was thought to maybe be for Bruno. The WB designator is thoguht to be maybe for Vienna but it is also thought to be for Wurzburg. No one knows for sure. There were many discussions about this years ago but the "evidence" was not conclusive as far as I remember.
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Old 03-25-2020, 08:55 AM   #39
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Here is one of the larger threads talking about it. In the end there was no conclusion. Anyway, that is a waste of time really without a period list of depot codes. Interesting tunic by itself.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=297775
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Old 03-25-2020, 11:14 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny R View Post
Here is one of the larger threads talking about it. In the end there was no conclusion. Anyway, that is a waste of time really without a period list of depot codes. Interesting tunic by itself.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=297775
Johnny, I think that you have the Heereseinteilung 1939, I may be wrong but seem to recall you citing it in the past.

In that book it lists all of the Heers Bekleidungsamts at least present as of that year. These have to be searched by corps areas so it takes time but it is spot on as to what has been deducted over the years. An exception is that it does not document any Bekleidungsamt established after 1939 nor does it actually provide the letter associated with the depot. These are generally easy enough to deduce once the city name is known but the WB WBr is a case that is no so obvious. I personally can not recall ever seeing just a W.

As for the tunic, it was much cheaper to have one modified like this that to start from scratch. The fabric was a big part of cost on custom pieces.
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Old 03-25-2020, 12:54 PM   #41
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[QUOTE=phild;8677866]Johnny, I think that you have the Heereseinteilung 1939, I may be wrong but seem to recall you citing it in the past.

In that book it lists all of the Heers Bekleidungsamts at least present as of that year. These have to be searched by corps areas so it takes time but it is spot on as to what has been deducted over the years. An exception is that it does not document any Bekleidungsamt established after 1939 nor does it actually provide the letter associated with the depot. These are generally easy enough to deduce once the city name is known but the WB WBr is a case that is no so obvious. I personally can not recall ever seeing just a W.


I have the 1939 reference at but also have a complete set of the Tessin volumes which maybe you are using? Those are fairly complete but not complete. Over the years I have found many units not listed I know existed. The interesting thing I remembered was this 1943 phone book listing that was posted by Jim P. The WB may indicate Wien-Brunn am Gebirge where there was a depot in 1943 so this may be the origin of "WB". A Heer clothing deport is listed as being in Vienna as of 1939 in Tessin.
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Old 03-26-2020, 09:43 AM   #42
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Johnny I was going to vote Wien-Brunn yesterday but got distracted before I could post.

Tom, this is a intriguing tunic. The padding in the chest and shoulders was a common tailor addition and I have a few tunics with such. I haven't seen anyone mention it, but the three seams down the back are reminiscent of a Waffenrock. However, the two outer back seams on a Waffenrock are curved behind the shoulders. So, I'd say the back seams on this tunic are "Waffenrock-ish". It is a puzzling piece.

KR 11 as well as A-A 11 which grew from part of KR 11 when it was disbanded were both in Stockerau (bei Wein).

FWIW I purchased a nice shoulder strap with Goldgelb chain-stitched "11" in Vienna back in the early '90's - and was incidentally staying with friends who lived in Stockerau.
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Old 03-26-2020, 10:39 AM   #43
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Nice converted M40 with most likely Austrian tailoring. I have an Austrian great coat converted for WH Heer use and it has the same type of ribbed/padded shoulder reenforcement padding...(as also seen on Dutch tunics which have 7 buttons unlike this one)
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Old 03-26-2020, 01:08 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickG View Post
Nice converted M40 with most likely Austrian tailoring. I have an Austrian great coat converted for WH Heer use and it has the same type of ribbed/padded shoulder reenforcement padding...(as also seen on Dutch tunics which have 7 buttons unlike this one)
I thought originally that this might have been converted from an Austrian overcoat but the 1940 date did not seem to match that. Unless it was factory done like Dutch tunics and reissued. Even if it is was reissued it would have also been tailored to get to where it sits today.
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Old 03-26-2020, 01:59 PM   #45
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I love these kind of discussions but think that most today find them boring and tedious. This was the only way to learn about the material pre Internet drive by collecting days say 30-40 years ago when the 3-4 uniform collectors in your part of the country would together and actually figure things out.

The center back seam tailoring was well accepted even on imperial tunics or rocks to be a more costly but superior cut tailoring style for better fit tunics. Most officer tunics employed this but many EM private purchase did not due to costs.

The converted greatcoat idea crossed my mind as well but I dismissed it because size stamps do not support it, we should be seeing a stamp of 120 or more for overall length if that was the case.

There was a great SS Officers tunic offered for sale here maybe 8-10 years ago made from an issue greatcoat and I think an early 39/40 era SS greatcoat at that. No one seemed to key on that and I don’t think I commented on the discussion. A officer could purchase two issue greatcoats, keep one for wear and use the matching one for a tunic, one or maybe two pair of riding breeches out of the skirts and perhaps a matching OS cap to boot!
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