wehrmacht awards


Go Back   Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums > Wehrmacht Era Militaria > Police & Civil Organizations Forum

Police & Civil Organizations Forum Police, RAD, Luftschutz, Org. Todt and other civil support organizations

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

Worksheet Strafanstalstbeamte & Justizwachtmeister
Old 12-13-2007, 02:52 PM   #1
lbsr
Member
 
lbsr is offline
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 500
Default Worksheet Strafanstalstbeamte & Justizwachtmeister

In few past days I tried put together all known informations to Strafanstaltsbeamten & Justizwachtmeister. It's only worksheet for the present not for public use.
Okay, there are some mistakes and dubiousnesses.

If somebody of forum members has more informations or can correct any mistakes in this worksheet, please, be so kind and share it with me - to make this page so accurate as possible...

For example I cannot find colors of "Amtstracht" - to determinate possible colors of collar patches after 1941, rank chart for Strafanstaltsbeamten before 1937, etc. etc.

Thnx

http://www.tenzor.cz/lbsr/dr/mdj/MdJ.html
  Reply With Quote

Excellent work!
Old 12-13-2007, 05:58 PM   #2
Diane
Member
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Diane is offline
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: New England
Posts: 1,252
Thumbs up Excellent work!

Hi Jiri!

This is very well done.

The Technical ranks use a cog-wheel device instead of a button. I will try to scan some insignia I have and post it.

Diane
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-13-2007, 06:21 PM   #3
stonemint
Lifetime Member
 
stonemint's Avatar
 
stonemint is offline
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 21,656
Default

I agree-very well done--the definative book on these organisations has yet to be written (in any language)....
  Reply With Quote

Collar Tabs
Old 12-13-2007, 09:58 PM   #4
Diane
Member
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Diane is offline
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: New England
Posts: 1,252
Lightbulb Collar Tabs

  Reply With Quote

Old 12-14-2007, 01:07 AM   #5
W.Unland
Member
 
W.Unland is offline
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Japan
Posts: 4,538
Default

Withdrawn

Last edited by W.Unland; 04-05-2008 at 12:36 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-14-2007, 08:22 AM   #6
Dave C.
Moderator
 
Dave C.'s Avatar
 
Dave C. is online now
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Colorado
Posts: 7,086
Default

Jiri,

Great work! I also have the same question as Bill since I also have a set of those rank straps.

Did you see the Dienstbekleidungsvorschrift der Reichsjustizverwaltung dated 3.6.42 that Gary found a while back?
__________________
Interested in the Gendarmerie - Schutzpolizei - Gemeinden - Feuerschutzpolizei - Wasserschutzpolizei - Etc. Looking For Anything Polizei Related!
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-14-2007, 08:56 AM   #7
lbsr
Member
 
lbsr is offline
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 500
Default

Diane,
thanks for pics - I didn't see real cogwheel anytime - I'll make a drawing to update my worksheet - one more thanks!

Bill,
it is the reason why I open this thread - to have most accurate information before publishing this page on my website.
Before 1937 Strafanstaltbamten wore (as I suppose after several German sources) different ranks (Landeseigene). In 1935 was 'einheitliche' uniform established and after 2 years (!) were ranks unified.
During years I found only 2 sources of rank chart 1937:
Deutsche Uniform- und Rangabzeichen, Patzwall, Norderstedt 1987
(http://www.tenzor.cz/lbsr/forum/JB.html) &
Uniformen-Markt Nr. 16, Jg. 1937, S.253 (vom 15. August 1937)
In these 2 sources (the 1st one is without date) are shoulderboards for 1er Hauptwachtmeister described in different way. I studied "Schulterückbeschreibung" of police shoulderboards for Meister etc. - as You know, these shoulderboards are similar) and I persuade
a) "Mittelgeflecht" is all gold with green "V"
b) "Mittelgeflecht" is all gold without any "V"
c) "Mittelgeflecht" is all green without any "V"
- That is stated in descripions.
Maybe they were changed later (i.e. before 1942), but I didn't find this source....
Maybe in printed sources they were described in a wrong way and I didn't find "correction" for it!?!
In my worksheet are all shoulderboard-drawing made after printed sources, noone of them after "real" shoulderboard. (It seems to me shouderboards of MdJ were longer than that ones for Police (they have usually one more loop - but You personally changed my mind when You posted somewhere pics of shorter shoulderboards for MdJ)...
Shoulderboard on pic You've posted here is (after my opinion) the right one for era 1937-1942 for Strafanstalstsbeamte (Justizvollzugsbeamte) - but as I told before I have no real printed source.

BTW: on posted pic is left shoulderboard mounted on right shoulder - infallible sign of additionall shoulderboards mounting....

Regards
lbsr

Last edited by lbsr; 12-14-2007 at 09:07 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-14-2007, 03:31 PM   #8
SCHUPO
Member
 
SCHUPO is offline
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 3,593
Default

I applaud your efforts Jiri. It would be nice to make some sense of this insignia.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-14-2007, 05:38 PM   #9
W.Unland
Member
 
W.Unland is offline
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Japan
Posts: 4,538
Default

Withdrawn

Last edited by W.Unland; 04-05-2008 at 12:36 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-14-2007, 08:03 PM   #10
lbsr
Member
 
lbsr is offline
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 500
Default

It is very easy:
1) the gallon's loop about button must go from behind ahead
2) gold/silver gallons in the middle of shoulderboard must go from the front backwards and from shoulder to the collar
3) Fischgrätenmuster (i.e. 'V') must must go with their peaks to collar on the front-side of shoulderboard.

Sometimes (especially by Meister-shoulderboards) cannot be these 3 rules kept (due to mistakenly produced shoulderboards). In this case firstly must be kept rule 1, than 2, etc.

The rule 1 was always kept for Stabsoffiziere-shoulderboards (Major, Oberstleutnant & Oberst) & for Generals...

The rule 2 was always kept for Meister-shoulderboards (at least I never has seen period photo with shoulderboards mounted another way

The rule 3 (about Vs') is valid for Wachtmeister-shouderboards, too - but as can one see from period photos, this rule was often violated...
(but the shoulderboards were always in "mirror" design).

Rule 3 was not valid for GDR police shoulderboards - they were made & mounted another way....

Ah, yes, the another rule for police wachtmeister-shoulderboards valid for these ones after April 1941: peaks of Vs must be in a ring, i.e. peaks on bottom side of shoulderboard must go from behind ahead....


P.S. It is for a me a liitle dífficult to say in English these rules - but I hope You understand what I mean....
  Reply With Quote

Justice Officials Ranks - a mystery
Old 12-14-2007, 09:15 PM   #11
Diane
Member
 
Diane's Avatar
 
Diane is offline
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: New England
Posts: 1,252
Justice Officials Ranks - a mystery

Here are some manufacturer sample boards that show a couple of ranks that are not described in the 1937 & 1942 regulations:





Now for some loose boards:




And finally:



What is the Lieutenant style shoulder boards in green with gold underlay and three pips?
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-15-2007, 10:37 AM   #12
gary9
Suspended
 
gary9 is offline
Join Date: May 2004
Location: South UK
Posts: 1,277
Default

Here is a nice justice official photo that I just won on ebay
Attached Images
File Type: jpg img491.jpg (87.9 KB, 382 views)
  Reply With Quote

rank question
Old 12-15-2007, 04:43 PM   #13
NickG
Association Member
 
NickG's Avatar
 
NickG is offline
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wehrkreis Süd Kalifornien
Posts: 22,534
Default rank question

WOW great thread!!!! and great rank chart of this obscure "branch" (justice)!!!!
I did not see this rank on the chart...but are these perhaps for a higher career justice official?
and what's the significance of double silver braid?
Not clear in the picture but same color green underlay and very well made...these are heavy boards!
Thanks
Nick
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCN0499.jpg (91.7 KB, 389 views)
  Reply With Quote

another view
Old 12-15-2007, 04:49 PM   #14
NickG
Association Member
 
NickG's Avatar
 
NickG is offline
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wehrkreis Süd Kalifornien
Posts: 22,534
Default another view

another view, no glare in image this time! Justice??
Nick
Attached Images
File Type: jpg justiz.jpg (91.0 KB, 386 views)
  Reply With Quote

Old 12-15-2007, 06:44 PM   #15
lbsr
Member
 
lbsr is offline
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 500
Default

Thanks for replies!
Diane,
first two photos shows boards after 1942 regulations with some exceptions:
1) material of Doppelschnüre seems to be more forestry than Justiz.
2) Another way of mounting 3 rosetten: maybe mistakenly mounted (the are so-called "Muster" from factory) - or 1942 regulations were updated - but it is Hauptwachtmeister (after my feeling).
3) Interesting is collar patch 3 (after 1942 regulations it never existed in green ...)

Photo 3 and 4 shows the same boards (I'm sure). The shoulderboards with doubled underlay are very curious - looks as forestry ones. In present time I make drawings to update my worksheet with them.
Especially strange is second pair (from left) - this form was common for Wehrmachtsbeamten (Einfache Dienst) - very strange....

5th board is Verwalter after '42 regulations
Last shoulderboards (beside patches) seems to be from after-war Germany. Look on the pipe - it has rounded form characterictic for BGS and ater-war west Germany police units...

Gary9 - great photo. Are You owner if it? If so, be so kind and send me scan in better resolution (I canot stated what is on those shoulderboard near shoulder - pip?).
Great is, that photo is dated - is a good message for us - now we are 99% sure the 1942 regulations were the last one!!!

NickG,
second pair of shouderboards posted is for RFV (Reichsfinanzverwaltung) before NAzi-era (look at my page http://www.tenzor.cz/lbsr/dr/zoll/zollbeamte.html )

Once more thanks everybody for valuable photos and notices - I'll continuously update my worksheet to fill this whitespace in our knowledges...

Btw: If somebody don't know, there are links to scanned material from UM; link to Gary's Dbekl from 1942 is there too...

Last edited by lbsr; 12-15-2007 at 06:50 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump






vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright Wehrmacht-Awards.com