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Daggers and Edged Weapons Forum This is the corner of the site where you can talk about daggers, bayonets, swords and knifes of the Wehrmacht and related organizations.

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Old 12-19-2019, 05:37 PM   #31
Dr.Vet
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... Imperial navies are your thing ?
Yes of course
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Old 12-19-2019, 06:05 PM   #32
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Hallo guys,
Also I noticed that the scabbard throat is shortened compared to the typical M1890

Regards
Jakub
Which speaks to the scabbard being possibly shortened thus losing the engraved name on the reverse. In that scenario it would support the hypothesis that it is a shortened 1890 pattern cadet dagger.
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Old 12-20-2019, 06:10 AM   #33
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... love those thump up polls. Makes things so easy.

We need to understand that it makes no real difference whether it’s a typical belly ‘replacement’ eagle or an early WKC which replaced the ‘flaming ball’ pommel. It’s in both cases a 1938 conversion which is normal for an earlier Eickhorn. The problem on this KM is the WKC scabbard because we will never be able to proof when this was changed. The scabbard makes it a non textbook dagger, which hurts the value, even it was done during the period.
Best;
collecting
I disagree, a typical "replacement" eagle pommel is much more of an indication that a dagger has been updated than a standard pommel, and this pommel alone would not mean that this K.M. dagger is a conversion from an M29 to an M38. This eagle pommel is usually found on initial production WKC M38s, the bigger problem with this dagger is the crossguard also being the type WKC used on their M38s and is IMO too late for a 1933-35 maker marked blade. It is the overall combination of the parts with the blade that makes this dagger very questionable.

Russ.
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Old 12-20-2019, 09:54 AM   #34
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Most likely we have here not a replacement eagle, rather “replacement” blade, if the eagle an early by WKC is.
Best,
Oleg.
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Old 12-20-2019, 10:14 AM   #35
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I disagree, a typical "replacement" eagle pommel is much more of an indication that a dagger has been updated than a standard pommel, and this pommel alone would not mean that this K.M. dagger is a conversion from an M29 to an M38. This eagle pommel is usually found on initial production WKC M38s, the bigger problem with this dagger is the crossguard also being the type WKC used on their M38s and is IMO too late for a 1933-35 maker marked blade. It is the overall combination of the parts with the blade that makes this dagger very questionable.

Russ.
... for conversion to 1938 regulation they used also normal production eagles. However, if there’s an additional problem with the crossguard, it seems someone changed just the blade.
Best;
Collecting
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Old 12-20-2019, 10:17 AM   #36
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Which speaks to the scabbard being possibly shortened thus losing the engraved name on the reverse. In that scenario it would support the hypothesis that it is a shortened 1890 pattern cadet dagger.
... the scabbard throat of that Imperial dagger wasn’t shortened imo. The blade would not fit coz the ricasso of the blade remains untouched in the shortening process. But because there’s indeed a difference it seems a shorter scabbard was added. This was also done during period.
Or is it possible to shorten the scabbard in that area w/o interfere the blade to scabbard fit?

Best; collecting

Last edited by collecting; 12-20-2019 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 12-20-2019, 01:27 PM   #37
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... the scabbard throat of that Imperial dagger wasn’t shortened imo. The blade would not fit coz the ricasso of the blade remains untouched in the shortening process. But because there’s indeed a difference it seems a shorter scabbard was added. This was also done during period.
Or is it possible to shorten the scabbard in that area w/o interfere the blade to scabbard fit?

Best; collecting
Maybe the scabbard was shortened at the bottom? In general it would be strange for me if the owner decided to give up his name when shortening the scabbard.
Best,
Oleg.
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Last edited by thebig; 12-20-2019 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 12-21-2019, 06:53 AM   #38
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My inexperienced thoughts on the imperial dagger are as mentioned that the tip of the blade and the top of the scabbard have been shortened, the bottom of the scabbard does not appear to have been touched as the acanthus leaf pattern looks undisturbed and a good reason for shortening the scabbard at the top where the plain undecorated part would have been. There's not much of a taper at the very top of the scabbard so I doubt a small cut off section in this area would interfere with the blade ricasso. The etched pattern on the blade ends nearer to the blade tip than shown on Oleg's examples so that's another indication of a shortened blade. Just my inexperienced opinion on this dagger.

Russ.

Last edited by Bulldog; 12-21-2019 at 07:04 AM.
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Old 12-21-2019, 07:22 AM   #39
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Most likely we have here not a replacement eagle, rather “replacement” blade, if the eagle an early by WKC is.
Best,
Oleg.
Hi Oleg, yes I think this is the case here.

Russ.
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Old 12-21-2019, 12:18 PM   #40
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My inexperienced thoughts on the imperial dagger are as mentioned that the tip of the blade and the top of the scabbard have been shortened, the bottom of the scabbard does not appear to have been touched as the acanthus leaf pattern looks undisturbed and a good reason for shortening the scabbard at the top where the plain undecorated part would have been. There's not much of a taper at the very top of the scabbard so I doubt a small cut off section in this area would interfere with the blade ricasso. The etched pattern on the blade ends nearer to the blade tip than shown on Oleg's examples so that's another indication of a shortened blade. Just my inexperienced opinion on this dagger.

Russ.
I agree with Russ.

Another theory that has been put forth is that the location of the carrying bands as a result of scabbard shortening causes hanging imbalance. Thus shortening only the chape end results in a dagger that is hanging at an improper or flatter angle than before. Perhaps shortening the top results in a better end product with respect to the angle of the dagger when suspended. Again, simply a hypotheses that others have relayed in publication.
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Old 12-21-2019, 05:15 PM   #41
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The one thing I've discovered over the past few cays is that I can't take blade photos worth a hoot So I'll apologize in advance. Here's the best of the worst.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Blade 1.jpg (66.6 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg Blade 2.jpg (73.5 KB, 51 views)
File Type: jpg Blade 3.jpg (34.4 KB, 54 views)
File Type: jpg Blade 4.jpg (30.4 KB, 54 views)
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Old 12-21-2019, 05:51 PM   #42
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Kriegs daggers are not my thing so I've no idea what most of the comments are about. Still, I'd like to pick up as much information as I can about them as I can.

The blade length on the open crown WKC marked blade is 11 3/16 from the b.lade tip to the pommel.

The open crown blade that already has been identified as Turkish is 9 1/4 from tip to pommel.

The Eickhorn dagger with the third reich eagle is 9 3/4 from tip to pommel.

Back in the days of doing motel buys you often had to buy things you didn't want to get the things you did. Imperial Kriegs was never something I ever got very familiar with. I appreciate your help!
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Old 12-21-2019, 10:04 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Larry Lipps View Post
Kriegs daggers are not my thing so I've no idea what most of the comments are about. Still, I'd like to pick up as much information as I can about them as I can.

The blade length on the open crown WKC marked blade is 11 3/16 from the b.lade tip to the pommel.

The open crown blade that already has been identified as Turkish is 9 1/4 from tip to pommel.

The Eickhorn dagger with the third reich eagle is 9 3/4 from tip to pommel.

Back in the days of doing motel buys you often had to buy things you didn't want to get the things you did. Imperial Kriegs was never something I ever got very familiar with. I appreciate your help!
To clarify, the dagger with the scabbard bands that are the same as on Turkish Navy scabbards is not a Turkish naval dagger. It is a German Navy dagger form. We have varying opinions on if it’s period, who the maker might be or if it’s a parts dagger. Lastly, we all struggle to get good photos of blades. I appreciate the pain you went through to get these.
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Old 12-22-2019, 08:55 AM   #44
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I would also appreciate if someone could post a photo of the pin in the pommel. I admit I really don't know what I'm looking for, but I don't see a pin on either the open or closed crown. Thanks!
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:06 PM   #45
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Hi Larry.
Best,
Oleg.
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