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Daggers and Edged Weapons Forum This is the corner of the site where you can talk about daggers, bayonets, swords and knifes of the Wehrmacht and related organizations.

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Old 12-02-2019, 10:53 PM   #16
thebig
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Hello Gentlemen,
In my opinion ist it an M1919 dagger by WKC with a later (M1921) scabbard by Alcoso.
Best regards,
Oleg.
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Old 12-03-2019, 05:40 AM   #17
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The short length of the blade is more indicative of an M19 than an M21.

Russ.
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Old 12-03-2019, 06:34 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Arndt View Post
Trust ??? This dagger is in the book.
My awkwardly expressed way of asking, if something in particular bothered you with this piece. Sorry.

Even though it's in a book that doesn't necessarily make it good. As we continue to learn as a collecting community, the things we accept as valid turn out not to be the case. I thought perhaps something caught your eye.
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Old 12-03-2019, 06:49 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebig View Post
Hello Gentlemen,
In my opinion ist it an M1919 dagger by WKC with a later (M1921) scabbard by Alcoso.
Best regards,
Oleg.
I agree Oleg and Russ. I couldn't tell that from the photos in the original post. I didn't go to references to post my initial reply.

Question: Do you see a lot of 1921 pattern daggers that have scabbards longer than the blades? I do almost always which may be a sample bias on my part. However, with this observation, I wonder if the scabbards were" generic" and designed to fit all blade lengths and used accordingly by multiple manufacturers. As you know during this period it was a dogs breakfast of dagger production and on a small scale relative to the Kaiserliche Marine or Kriegsmarine periods. Attribution of individual parts to specific manufacturers is more difficult.
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Old 12-03-2019, 07:43 AM   #20
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Hello Rick,
according to my observations, such a scabbard with a „long“ knots on the both sides of the scabbard is typical for the Reichsmarine daggers by Alcoso. The scabbards throat screws looks typical as well.
Best,
Oleg.
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Old 12-03-2019, 09:05 AM   #21
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This is not my specialty but didn't they all have grips made from horn? I though they were all horn and this one looks like it is made from plastic. I do not have the TW/TJ Navy dagger book but you might want to check in there.
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Old 12-03-2019, 03:03 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobI View Post
This is not my specialty but didn't they all have grips made from horn? I though they were all horn and this one looks like it is made from plastic. I do not have the TW/TJ Navy dagger book but you might want to check in there.
They were not all of horn. They were produced in horn and also in ebony and celluloid over wood base.
Best,
Oleg.
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Last edited by thebig; 12-03-2019 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 12-03-2019, 07:24 PM   #23
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Thanks Oleg!
Bob
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Old 12-04-2019, 06:30 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratocaster3 View Post
Question: Do you see a lot of 1921 pattern daggers that have scabbards longer than the blades? I do almost always which may be a sample bias on my part. However, with this observation, I wonder if the scabbards were" generic" and designed to fit all blade lengths and used accordingly by multiple manufacturers. As you know during this period it was a dogs breakfast of dagger production and on a small scale relative to the Kaiserliche Marine or Kriegsmarine periods. Attribution of individual parts to specific manufacturers is more difficult.
Hi stratocaster3, I can only speculate on these M21s as they are not a model I have studied. As you say the production of naval daggers during the Weimar period would have been a lot less compared to production during Imperial and Third Reich periods, therefore I would be surprised if at this time a "generic" scabbard had been specifically designed and produced for very small producers or to fit all blades, I think it would have been more likely that a batch of standard M21 scabbards would have been ordered from one of the larger well established manufacturers like Alcoso, Eickhorn or WKC to update officers M19s, which could be why today we see a mish-mash of parts, in the case of this dagger I agree with Oleg that it is an Alcoso scabbard as the scabbard bands/knot are of the design used by Alcoso on their M29s. It was a different story in the Third Reich period when more companies started producing them because of the greater demand and to make a few more Reich marks. This though is speculation.

Russ.

Last edited by Bulldog; 12-04-2019 at 07:36 AM. Reason: wording
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Old 12-04-2019, 09:32 AM   #25
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Russ,
That makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you.

I think these 1919 and 1921 pattern daggers aren't often appreciated for how scarce they are relative to other periods. Under the Versailles Treaty the navy was reduced to basically a coastal patrol force. Subsequently the number of officers and daggers was indeed small.
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