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Cloth Headgear Forum Covers officer visor, overseas caps, field caps, and any cloth headgear.

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Old 03-08-2019, 02:58 AM   #31
Tim O'Keefe
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Originally Posted by RGD51 View Post
Ben, its been written about in DAK reference books. Its pretty common knowledge among collectors in the context of how the new soldiers could effect the look of a seasoned campaigner by bleaching out their field caps to bone white using the losantin tabs in their anti gas kits.

Robt.
Thanks Robert for the details as to the 'bleaching"

Surprisingly it is not common knowledge as to the actual exact process. In the thread i started on the bleached Art straps above (which clearly have been dipped) no members could explain the details from Any source. The "paste" is new to me also. How was the "paste" applied, by a brush ?
Not only caps but entire jackets with their straps & pants were bleached chemically. Was a paste used on these also, thats alot of paste ? and wouldn't it be unevenly spread on the tunic and straps or pants ? Pretty sure the jackets/pants and some caps were dipped into the bleaching agent ?

Have seen the M40's red liner interior faded by the chemical bleaching process is some cases.

Good point about Losantin shelf life time, the experimant mentioned may not have accounted for that possibility...should be done again by someone

Also there are dealers that i see have bone white tunics for sale that i feel the jackets were bleached post war or even recently.

Thanks again Robert as i think we are getting closer to the bottom of it
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Old 03-08-2019, 03:10 AM   #32
Tim O'Keefe
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Originally Posted by 90th Light View Post
In my experience, Halfar caps made from German twill fade quickly but the examples made from "Sage-green" French twill hold their colour the longest and do not seem to bleach out to the whitish shade, so highly valued by collectors today.

More than one North African New Zealand veteran told me that they freshened their uniforms by rubbing with sand due to a total lack of any possible water to wash clothes in,

Chris

Good info on the natural fading. We are also discussing chemically bleached not naturally bleached caps & tunics in Afrika. Can you add anything on that, what about this "paste" or Losantin mixed with ? etc ?

The Art straps above are chemically bleached and only naturally faded after that.
The cloth thread used on the entire buttonhole is bleached, not just the area exposed to the sun and elements. So these were dipped while still attached to a tunic when the chemical bleaching took place.

thanks
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Old 03-08-2019, 05:27 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim O'Keefe View Post
Good info on the natural fading. We are also discussing chemically bleached not naturally bleached caps & tunics in Afrika. Can you add anything on that, what about this "paste" or Losantin mixed with ? etc ?

The Art straps above are chemically bleached and only naturally faded after that.
The cloth thread used on the entire buttonhole is bleached, not just the area exposed to the sun and elements. So these were dipped while still attached to a tunic when the chemical bleaching took place.

thanks
The only thing I can add Tim, is that there is every chance your "Art straps" were chemically treated post war to enhance the value. Never seen a veteran brought back tropical strap completely faded all over like that.

I suppose there is a chance they did it during the war as you have speculated but equally such things have been done post war, especially when completely bleached out all over like your pair. The soiling on them does not look natural either. Collectors today will never know one way or the other for sure.

Also looking at some tropical M40 caps today, it has occurred to me that the cap which started this thread is more likely to be a Lago rather than a Halfar,

Chris

Last edited by 90th Light; 03-08-2019 at 05:35 AM.
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Old 03-08-2019, 06:12 AM   #34
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Thanks for your comments. These were found in Germany thanks to a good friend

Last edited by Tim O'Keefe; 03-08-2019 at 06:18 AM.
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Old 03-08-2019, 11:12 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by 90th Light View Post

Also looking at some tropical M40 caps today, it has occurred to me that the cap which started this thread is more likely to be a Lago rather than a Halfar,

Chris
I am unfamiliar with any LAGO caps that had zig-zag stitching. LAGO Berlin's application was nearly identical to Lubstein (straight stitch). I am pretty sure this cap is a Halfar, possibly post July '42.
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Old 03-08-2019, 12:34 PM   #36
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It would be useful to any discussion if The Tiger were to contact the family and attempt to get a little info such as was Argauer a family name? Was the soldier a POW and in what country?
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Old 03-08-2019, 12:54 PM   #37
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I am unfamiliar with any LAGO caps that had zig-zag stitching. LAGO Berlin's application was nearly identical to Lubstein (straight stitch). I am pretty sure this cap is a Halfar, possibly post July '42.
Yes, and if you look very carefully you can see the remains of zig zag stitching on the eagle at very bottom.

Robt.
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Old 04-02-2019, 09:55 PM   #38
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Interesting thread.
I don't have an issue with Tim's faded tropical straps. Yes they appear to have chemical bleaching to give them that look but the overall straps look period to me (bleaching and all).

As for the cap that started this thread, I believe that is a Lago as they did use zig zag stitching on the insignia of some caps and stitching the same as Lubsteins on others. They also attached the soutache through the body and also between the body and peak. I've only seen the application between the body and peak on two caps, both dated 1941.

I've attached pics of my Lago with zig zag stitching as an example (although soutache is through the body). This is a 1940 dated cap.

Mark

P.S. Just edited my post. I'm convinced it is a Lago
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Tropical M40 Lago 1.jpg (107.6 KB, 136 views)
File Type: jpg Tropical M40 Lago 2.jpg (155.3 KB, 137 views)
File Type: jpg Tropical M40 Lago 3.jpg (215.6 KB, 138 views)
File Type: jpg Tropical M40 Lago 4.jpg (193.8 KB, 138 views)

Last edited by Mark Gibson; 04-02-2019 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 04-02-2019, 10:12 PM   #39
Tim O'Keefe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gibson View Post
Interesting thread.
I don't have an issue with Tim's faded tropical straps. Yes they appear to have chemical bleaching to give them that look but the overall straps look period to me (bleaching and all).

Mark
Thanks Mark

I & others were surprised to hear Chris's comments as to the straps being bleached post war.

Of course the Art straps were bleached during the war, happened all the time to get that vet look.


cheers
Tim
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Old 04-02-2019, 10:16 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim O'Keefe View Post
Thanks Mark

I & others were surprised to hear Chris's comments as to the straps being bleached post war.

Of course the Art straps were bleached during the war, happened all the time to get that vet look.


cheers
Tim
They are very nice straps Tim, absolute keepers.

I did edit most post above concerning the identification of the cap in question. The whole cap screams to me Lago.
Looking at the side profile of the false turn up, the Lago has more of a pronounced curve to the cut whilst Halfar's have what I would could a gentle curve.
The thread starter has this very distinct curve. I'll see if I can get some pics together to display this.
Another point, Lago markings tend to fade much more easily than Halfar so a bit of chemical bleaching will certainly help that along further. You can see from the cap I've shown how faded they are on an unbleached cap.

Mark

P.S. I did read somewhere about how disappointed you were to see that I was breaking up my collection. I haven't been breaking it up, just consolidating and focusing on early items. It still is a very large collection, I just don't post pictures very often anymore.

Last edited by Mark Gibson; 04-02-2019 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 04-02-2019, 10:29 PM   #41
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One more wee little point, I've never seen a Carl Halfar with the soutache going between the body and peak.

Mark
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Old 04-04-2019, 04:05 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gibson View Post
Interesting thread.
I don't have an issue with Tim's faded tropical straps. Yes they appear to have chemical bleaching to give them that look but the overall straps look period to me (bleaching and all).

As for the cap that started this thread, I believe that is a Lago as they did use zig zag stitching on the insignia of some caps and stitching the same as Lubsteins on others. They also attached the soutache through the body and also between the body and peak. I've only seen the application between the body and peak on two caps, both dated 1941.

I've attached pics of my Lago with zig zag stitching as an example (although soutache is through the body). This is a 1940 dated cap.

Mark

P.S. Just edited my post. I'm convinced it is a Lago
Hello Mark,

thank you for posting the images of your Lago tropical M40 with zig-zag stitched insignia. Your confirmation of the existance of such caps is appreciated.

In regard to Tim's chemically bleached all-over tropical straps, I have sound reasons for expressing my caution. When time permits may be we could discuss this by email. I would be interested to learn if you have in your collection, or have seen in other collections any beyond doubt 100% veteran brought back examples of such straps bleached all-over like that.

Best regards,

Chris

Last edited by 90th Light; 04-04-2019 at 04:23 AM.
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Old 04-05-2019, 01:52 AM   #43
Tim O'Keefe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90th Light View Post
Hello Mark,

In regard to Tim's chemically bleached all-over tropical straps, I have sound reasons for expressing my caution. When time permits may be we could discuss this by email. I would be interested to learn if you have in your collection, or have seen in other collections any beyond doubt 100% veteran brought back examples of such straps bleached all-over like that.

Best regards,

Chris
Thanks for your opinion. According to many the term "vet bring back" is just a cliche.
The guys in the Helmet Forum are having some fun currently with this term.

Here is ValhallaMilitaria 's thought's on "vet bring back"

"So what was NOT a vet 'bringback'? anyway? the term has been overused to the point of irrelevancy."

Here is member pauke's recollection that is interesting.

"I never asked any Africa veterans I knew how they got "the look" on their uniforms and I'm reminded of a photo I have of a A.A. 3 friend just after he got a new issue of long pants and they looked strange in contrast to his very bleached out cap and tunic. He did say he took care of the "problem" soon thereafter. "

Which implies he chemically bleached his pants to match his faded tunic and cap.
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