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Fighting Knife, SAS Phantom.
Old 03-02-2017, 03:35 PM   #1
dragnet
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Default Fighting Knife, SAS Phantom.

The nephew of a Joseph Edward Gwinneth brought into me this morning three blades that had been left with him after his uncles death, one Remington 1917 bayonet, homeguard issued i belive, an Italian bayonet, battered and appears to be the sort found here in the UK having been brought back from Africa and this neat little fighting knife. The blade i belive is most probably an ex commando dagger with a home made hilt cast and added . The blade and handle are i would say a third less in size than a usual commando dagger, fits quite well in the hand with the pommel sitting at the back of your palm for a better push. The scabbard again appears home made. Ive not had chance yet to search for the vet who accordingly was a member and radio operator of a SAS Phantom unit. Anyway im interested in hearing any opinions folks
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Old 03-02-2017, 03:37 PM   #2
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Old 03-02-2017, 03:51 PM   #3
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I now belive his surname is Gwinnett, the nephew signed a note for me so i will have check in the morning
Well had a quicky look on tinternet and i couldnt find the vet and now understand the phantom unit was a special reconnaissance mob, Gwinnett being a radio operator does tie in, the SAS mentioned by his nephew will take some research if its possible!?

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Old 03-03-2017, 05:57 AM   #4
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This is a known pattern of F-S knife except in this case the top of the grip has been messed with. The scabbard looks as if it is either a cut down bayonet scabbard or that from a german trench knife.
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Old 03-03-2017, 08:46 AM   #5
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Phantom units were, as you say, special reconnaissance units, with a history connecetd to 'special forces' but they were not, I don't believe, part of the SAS as such. here's a link to a fairly good synopsis tof their hsitory. https://paradata.org.uk/units/phanto...aison-regiment

David Niven served with the Phantom units, hence the anecdote of his being challneged by a nervous American sentry during the Battle of the Bulge, when German troops had infiltrated US lines disguised as Yanks.

'Halt!.. Who won the 1936 World series?

'No bloddy idea, old boy.'

'Oh, Niven, it's you. Go ahead then.'

It may even be true!
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Old 03-03-2017, 11:51 AM   #6
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Phantom teams were allocated to various SAS missions in France in 1944, 3 Phantoms were murdered along with their SAS comrades in the aftermath of operation Loyton.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Loyton

Although the Phantoms worked with & were under the direct command of the SAS they were still phantoms & wore the black beret.

Extract from Paradata.org (https://paradata.org.uk/units/phanto...aison-regiment)

"Some patrols undertook parachute drops with the SAS to provide communications with SAS Brigade HQ".

it is not impossible that the items above have a Phantom / SAS link, but as usual, we need to beware of unsubstantiated stories.

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Old 03-03-2017, 12:02 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welrod_man View Post

it is not impossible that the items above have a Phantom / SAS link, but as usual, we need to beware of unsubstantiated stories.

Goes without saying I have no doubt the nephew belived what he was telling me a truthfull snippet of family history, the price i paid was not inflated by the story, im going to need to find his uncles records at some point Apart from connecting this with a reconnaissance mob how does the dagger stand? As ive mentioned its smaller than a usual commando type, blade has been shortened and it would appear that the handle has not been cut down but cast this size, pommel would suggest a cast piece. Anybody seen such a conversion?
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Old 03-04-2017, 05:44 AM   #8
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This is a shortened alloy hilted or cast-gripped knife (http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artikla...nife_steel.htm. http://www.wilkinsonfscollection.com...ipped_F-S.html) I have a full size version, unfortunately very little is known about them. Clearly the shortening of the knife has been well executed.
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Old 03-04-2017, 12:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimebox View Post
This is a shortened alloy hilted or cast-gripped knife (http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artikla...nife_steel.htm. http://www.wilkinsonfscollection.com...ipped_F-S.html) I have a full size version, unfortunately very little is known about them. Clearly the shortening of the knife has been well executed.
Yes thats the one i was thinking of I belived the handle was cast this size as there are no rings to be seen were there should be if shortened, only explanation for no rings on a shortend handle would the top rings being ground and then the pommel fashioned from the remains of the handle Interesting
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Old 03-06-2017, 07:59 AM   #10
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Actually not always. I knew a member of Phantom who was attached to 5.SAS and he wore an airborne beret with SAS badge.



Quote:
Originally Posted by welrod_man View Post
Although the Phantoms worked with & were under the direct command of the SAS they were still phantoms & wore the black beret.
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:44 AM   #11
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Fair point, I should have said usually

Similarly, at this period in time SAS sometimes wore the black beret & Recce Corp badge in an attempt to avoid the Commando order if captured.

M
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Old 03-11-2017, 12:15 PM   #12
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Here is mine.
Issued to a REME private in 1946 when he was attached to an Airborne unit. Came out of stores with what appears to be a converted German scabbard .
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Old 03-12-2017, 06:34 AM   #13
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Here is a picture of Sgt Len Owens MM. F Squadron Phantom Signals, 1,2 SAS.
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