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Old 04-23-2009, 12:41 PM   #46
Gene T
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Interesting photos, Gordon. The first one shows a garment that has the characteristic wide collar and foliage loops of my 1958 parka, but is worn tucked into the trousers; which could mean that a short jacket uniform was issued alongside the parka from the very beginning of the adoption of the Erbsentarn field uniforms (this would also mean that you have several more variants of these garments to be on the lookout for)...

Tucking the pant legs into long socks would make for a very unsightly appearance, so the Gebirgsjaeger seen in the second photo piggybacking his partner was either wearing knickers or had his pant legs rolled up. I suspect it's the latter.

In your third photo, I think we are looking at a 1960 and later parka turned inside out. Note the two piece back (as evidenced by the presence of a central seam) and the vertical access slit on the hip, which are two of the numerous features that distinguish these later parkas from their predecessors. Here is my '59 parka (left) next to a '60 dated example (right).




cheers,
Gene T
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:14 PM   #47
Bernhard
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GeneT

Thank you very much for the information on the Kampfanzug.
After rereading the thread I had a look in my books about the Uniforms
of the Bundesheer I found this drawing about the Tank Combat Uniform
57.
A short variant without lower pockets , to be worn tucked into the trousers.
Maybe this is of interrest.

Regards

Bernhard
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Old 04-24-2009, 03:09 AM   #48
Gordon Craig
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Gene T and Bernhard,

Interesting additions to our knowledge base on this particular uniform. I can not wait to get home this summer and unpack my colection to find out exactly what I have. Didn't have any of this type of information available when I bought my stuff years ago.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 04-26-2009, 06:35 PM   #49
Hugh Zillmann old
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Gentlemen,

Gordon, thanks for disseminating my photographs to the group. The simple expedient of turning the uniform "inside out" to create an instant snow cam is an almost universal exercise of "quick thinking" in military circles.
The "panzerkampfanzug 57" is REALLY interesting. Has anyone seen one in the flesh? The trousers look unremarkable, in the sense that they appear consistent with the '58 and '59 pattern, but the jacket....... I also note that there appears to be a detachable hood (kapuze). Could these have been used as early expedient helmet covers?
Gordon, one thing which occurs to me that I'd like your input on, concerns the photos you took of the Grenzschutz uniform, where what is being worn is a complete camo uniform (which you have in a separate thread). Apart from the B&W photos of the Manion Auction's item, this is the only evidence I have seen for patches being worn on this order of dress. In the photos it seems that the patch is sewn to the right sleeve. This is odd, because in all other photos I have seen of Austrian uniforms, patches are invariably sewn on the left sleeve. Any thoughts on this? I can't imagine that the museum would make such an obvious blooper and it would seem to be correct placement, given that the bird's head would "face the rear" if sewn to the left sleeve.
Anyway, enough from me for now.
Best regards,
Hugh
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:56 AM   #50
Gordon Craig
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Hugh,

A very astute observation about what arm the patch should be worn on. The museum could have made a mistake (not the first one to do so) if that is what they have done. The uniform from the museum is the only uniform I have seen with a Grenzer patch. There are some examples of current uniforms with patches on the right sleeve. UN and ISAF patches are worn there and some helicopter pilots wear patches on the right arm. A very interesting point and one we should follow up on.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 04-27-2009, 02:27 PM   #51
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Hi fellow Collectors ,

I took a short look and found out the follwing information on the
Grenzschutz arm patch.

The Grenzschutz shield was the first official patch introduced in the Bundesheer.
The date : December 4 , 1961 .

The shield was designed to be worn on the soldiers right shoulder.

On November 25 ,1967 a new order regulated the wear of badges for the
Bundesheer ; from this date the shoulder patches have to be worn on the wearers left shoulder.

Suddenly the good old Grenzadler looked into the wrong direction if the patch would be worn on the left shoulder.....


Today we as collectors can find two kinds of Grenschutz patches as you can see in the pic below.

I hope this helps !!

Regards

Bernhard
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Old 04-27-2009, 03:18 PM   #52
Gordon Craig
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Bernhard,

Great information. Saves me a lot of running around like a chicken with my head chopped off!
I am going to have to order those Bundesheer books you recommended.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 04-27-2009, 06:06 PM   #53
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Gentlemen,

This is fascinating stuff. Has anyone seen any photographs of patches being worn on the Kampfanzug (apart from those earlier referred to)? I can understand that they would be worn on Grenzschutz uniforms, but the notion of "full-colour" on cam uniforms, for use in the field where high visability is not a good option, just seems a bit odd.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Regards,
Hugh
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:42 AM   #54
Gordon Craig
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Hugh,

I looked through my books after your comments on the Grenzer wearing his shield on the right side and I did not find any pictures showing shields in wear on cammo uniforms. I have seen the post cammo field uniforms for sale in a Vienna Flea market with shields on the sleeves. I'll have to inspect them closer the next time I am there.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 04-28-2009, 06:26 PM   #55
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Gordon (and Gentlemen),
That's been my experience as well. One sees the patches on the shirts of the contemporary uniform, but, apart from the Manion jacket and the museum display, I cannot recall ever seeing patches (or marks from patches) on any of the Austrian camo jackets I have inspected (which is about 7 or 8 in total, as I recall).
I was toubled by the way the patch on the museum display was sewn to the jacket - it looked "hand-done". The Austrian shirts and tunics I have (which is not that many, I must admit) all show the patches as machine-sewn.
Theres no doubt a nice, bright patch will "sex-up" an otherwise fairly drab tunic or jacket (and make it psychologically more "attractive" to a potential buyer), but from a practical aspect, as I said before, it tends to negate the whole purpose of camouflage - concealment.
I have not reached a concluded view on this, but I'm leaning to the opinion that, if patches were worn operationally, it was a personal thing and not universal.
What does everyone else think? Am I being too judgmental?
Cheers,
Hugh
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Old 04-29-2009, 03:09 PM   #56
Gordon Craig
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Hugh,

Some thoughts. The Grenzer badge was the first one issued in the Bundesheer circa 1961. It was worn from then until sometime after 1968. During this time frame the Bundesheer wore the grey service dress uniform. It would be logical to say that this badge was worn on the dress uniform and not the field cammo uniform. However, was everyone issued a dress uniform? I haven't studied the Bundesheer deep enough to know but I am assumng there was the mandatory time spent in the armed forces as a young man or woman. Would these short term soldiers be supplied with the grey dress uniform? If they were not, and only had a cammo uniform to wear, then it would be logical to say they would have worn the badge on the arm of the cammo uniform. Lots of conjecture here and until we can find photographic proof that the arm badges were worn this way it will have to stay conjecture.
Writing in this thread has just given my some assistance in solveing a question I had about the Jaeger tunic I just started a thread on.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 04-29-2009, 03:22 PM   #57
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Bernhard,

I have a question for you that is off topic but I am sure would be of interest to all of those who have posted to this thread. When were arm shields introduced for the rest of the Bundesheer? My reason for asking is related to the thread on my Jaeger Captain that I just started. There are no arm shields on the Jaeger tunic and no sign that there ever were any sewn to either arm.
A second question comes to mind as well. Was there more than one type of shield worn? I am referring to the average soldier and not counting the arm shield for the Maria Terraca (spelleing?) Military Academy.

Regards,

Gordon


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
Hi fellow Collectors ,

I took a short look and found out the follwing information on the
Grenzschutz arm patch.

The Grenzschutz shield was the first official patch introduced in the Bundesheer.
The date : December 4 , 1961 .

The shield was designed to be worn on the soldiers right shoulder.

On November 25 ,1967 a new order regulated the wear of badges for the
Bundesheer ; from this date the shoulder patches have to be worn on the wearers left shoulder.

Suddenly the good old Grenzadler looked into the wrong direction if the patch would be worn on the left shoulder.....


Today we as collectors can find two kinds of Grenschutz patches as you can see in the pic below.

I hope this helps !!

Regards

Bernhard
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Old 07-13-2009, 05:34 AM   #58
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Gentlemen,

Time to bring this thread to life again. Since receiving my copy of Rolf Urrisk's book "Die UNIFORMEN des osterreichischen Bundesheers 1952-1995" I've been studying the camouuflage uniforms in it. I think there are some things in it that need to be posted to this thread. There are what appear to be official drawings of three different uniforms in the Tarnmuster camouflage pattern in the book. Here they are for comparison purposes with each other, the drawing of the M 57 panzer uniform in Tarnmuster and the actual uniforms posted by Gene T.

Regards,

Gordon

First the one up in the Kampfanzug M 57 (Tarnanzug).
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Old 07-13-2009, 05:36 AM   #59
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Kampfanzug M 59
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Old 07-13-2009, 05:37 AM   #60
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Tarnanzug 69.
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