wehrmacht awards


Go Back   Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums > Wehrmacht Era Militaria > Order of Battle and Individual Research Forum

Order of Battle and Individual Research Forum Order of battle, unit history, personality research.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

Unteroffiziervorschule IV (des Heeres)
Old 03-27-2018, 11:13 AM   #1
TWS
Association Member
 
TWS's Avatar
 
TWS is offline
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,695
Default Unteroffiziervorschule IV (des Heeres)

I believe this would be the appropriate forum; admin please move if I'm in error.

I'm looking for information on Unteroffiziervorschule IV des Heeres. The Army preparatory school for NCO's, number 4.

I've looked on Lexikon der Wehrmacht, put in searches here, and even Googled it, and I can't really find anything.

The location and anything else would be very helpful.

Thanks in advance!
__________________
Todd
Seeking photographs of Joachim Tiesler, DKiG Stalingrad, 3rd I.D. (mot.) and Clemens Freiherr von Fürstenberg, DKiG 7th Panzer Division.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-27-2018, 01:46 PM   #2
Gerdan
Member
 
Gerdan is offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 12,119
Default

I found that the Unteroffiziersschule 4 was located in Neu Sandez, Generalgouvernement.

Gerdan
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-27-2018, 07:23 PM   #3
Archi
Association Member
 
Archi is offline
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,187
Default

Hello !

This is an interesting question, but it would be great if you you could provide additional info,
where and in which connection this designation occurs, as the answer may also depend on the timeframe.
It is very difficult to find infos on those schools and especially on the Uffz.-Vorschulen.

If I understood it correctly, those Uffz-Vorschulen, were intended for pupils, who were
just not old enough to become soldiers, but were determined to go that way.
Therefore, they could receive regular education (as in a normal school for their age group),
but also some additional military training, which would be helpful for later NCOs.
A link that describes some of this (at the bottom) :
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...rsschule-R.htm

In 1940, there were 4 Uffz.-Vorschulen in Dresden, Hannover, München and Wiener-Neustadt.
But these may have changed locations and also some were turned into HUS (regular Unteroffizierschulen).
I do not know whether these were ever numbered, therefore any additional info could be useful.

Best regards,

Archi
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-27-2018, 08:57 PM   #4
TWS
Association Member
 
TWS's Avatar
 
TWS is offline
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,695
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdan View Post
I found that the Unteroffiziersschule 4 was located in Neu Sandez, Generalgouvernement.

Gerdan
Thanks Gerdan! Do you have any further information or source that points to that location? Bear in mind this is regarding the Unteroffiziervorschule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archi View Post
Hello !

This is an interesting question, but it would be great if you you could provide additional info,
where and in which connection this designation occurs, as the answer may also depend on the timeframe.
It is very difficult to find infos on those schools and especially on the Uffz.-Vorschulen.

Best regards,

Archi
Hello Archi,
Thanks for the link!
Yes, that is my understanding as well. The school would have been for teenagers who wanted to prepare for a future as a NCO when they were old enough. I am curious because I just acquired a Parade Waffenrock for an Unteroffizier who was probably a member of the cadre or "Lehrpersonal" or otherwise assigned to the school as a staff member, not a pupil.
This is the tunic, as listed in Ratisbon's latest auction.

Unfortunately there is no name tag - which usually had a date from the tailor. If there was one, it was removed. There are a couple stitch holes/small loose threads in the pocket which lead me to believe a name tag was purposefully removed - which we see often.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2000000248810-002.jpg (55.6 KB, 217 views)
File Type: jpg 2000000248810-007.JPG (205.3 KB, 220 views)
File Type: jpg 2000000248810-008.JPG (197.3 KB, 219 views)
File Type: jpg 2000000248810-012.JPG (187.2 KB, 218 views)
__________________
Todd
Seeking photographs of Joachim Tiesler, DKiG Stalingrad, 3rd I.D. (mot.) and Clemens Freiherr von Fürstenberg, DKiG 7th Panzer Division.

Last edited by TWS; 03-27-2018 at 09:02 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-29-2018, 08:18 PM   #5
Archi
Association Member
 
Archi is offline
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,187
Default

Hello Todd/TWS !

Nice tunic !

I found some more info on this topic :
In April 1940, the first four Heeres-Uffz.-Vorschulen (Army NCO Preparatory schools) were formed in :
- Dresden [WK IV] [4 Kp.] (=> might have become Schule I f. OA/Fhjk. d. Inf. in 1942)
- Hannover [WK XI] [4 Kp.] (=> might have become Schule VIII f. OA/Fhjk. d. Inf. in 1942 ?!)
- München [WK VII] [4 Kp.] (???)
- Wiener-Neustadt [WK XVII] [4 Kp.] (=> might have become Schule II f. OA/Fhjk. d. Inf.)

Status in Nov. 1942 :
Heeresunteroffizier-Vorschulen existing in (list is likely not complete. Additions are welcome !):
WK IV :
- Freiberg
- Marienberg
- Tetschen

WK V :
- Ravensburg

WK VI :
- Jülich

WK IX :
- Wetzlar
- Weilburg

WK XII :
- Biebrich (b. Wiesbaden)

WK XX :
- Mewe

WK XXI :
- Kosten

I am afraid, this doesn't help to finally answer your question, to which school this soldier was attached.
But I hope it gives at least some references.

I would just like to mention a few points :
I haven't found any hint, that the HU-Vorschulen ever used a number system. They were always referred to by their
location. (Somehow similar applies to the HUS, which only in November 1944 were given arabic numbers instead locations).
(However, it may well be, that such a numbering existed, but is simply not known.)

In my oppinion, the IV could perhaps point to WK IV. But then the question is, what would happen in 1942 ?
Would teachers in all 3 schools in WK IV have shoulderboards similar to those shown in your photos ?!
Same question for WK IX. Or should those boards be distinctive for every individual school ?
Lots of questions remain ...

Best regards,

Archi
Attached Images
File Type: jpg AHM_1940_p_0116a.jpg (188.4 KB, 200 views)
File Type: jpg 1942_Nov_WK_IV_IX_examples.jpg (84.4 KB, 200 views)
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-29-2018, 08:34 PM   #6
TWS
Association Member
 
TWS's Avatar
 
TWS is offline
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,695
Default

Wow Archi! Thanks. Excellent work. I really appreciate it.

You are right, still many questions remain.

You also may be correct in that the schools themselveswere not numbered, but rather the cadre at each school wore insignia with the Wehrkreis roman numeral. I have seen another tunic, a 4-pocket Dienstrock on the Internet with the same chain stitching on the boards. Collectors have a lot of "lore" which is often revealed to be "collector urban legend" when subjected to hard research, but for what it's worth that tunic was referred to belonging to "school four" as well.

I have one more clue, but it is actually contradictory: The tunic was made by Friedrich Wesemann tailor shop in Hannover.

That would normally point to the school in Hannover since soldiers almost always went to a tailor either in/near their duty station or their home town. But that would be Wehrkreis XI.
__________________
Todd
Seeking photographs of Joachim Tiesler, DKiG Stalingrad, 3rd I.D. (mot.) and Clemens Freiherr von Fürstenberg, DKiG 7th Panzer Division.
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-30-2018, 04:29 PM   #7
naxos
Association Member
 
naxos's Avatar
 
naxos is offline
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,474
Default

Excellent tunic!

Here is a page from a Soldbuch of a Heeresunteroffizier-Vorschüler

Note; the Heeresunteroffizier-Vorschüler born in June 1925 was issued the Soldbuch in October 1942 when he was admitted to the Heeres-Unteroffizier Schule in Düren
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 52790bz.jpg (63.8 KB, 191 views)
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-30-2018, 07:30 PM   #8
Archi
Association Member
 
Archi is offline
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,187
Default

Hello !

Very interesting addition by naxos ! Thanks !
So he was "drafted" to the HUS shortly after becoming 17.
I would be very interested how long he stayed in the HUS Jülich. Is it possible to say that from the other entries ?

Regarding the last post by Todd :
>>You also may be correct in that the schools themselveswere not numbered ...<<
I just want to mention, that at least such a numbering is not known to me.
If you look at the two scans, taken from organizational overviews of the replacement army,
you can see that in both cases the "Schule f. Offz.Anwärter" is mentioned with the respective number (I and IV),
while this is not the case for the HUS or the Vorschulen.

I have found a few more links regarding similar tunics :
One looks similar to yours but has a reference to a tailor in Frankfurt :
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/a...5-a5210135fe37

There is another one, which doesn't load in my browser, with a reference to tailor in Hildesheim (close to Hannover).

Perhaps even more interesting :
I found a nice photo of a soldier from a HUS, who also seems to wear a roman number (at least to me it looks like a : II) :
http://www.pixpast.com/forum/public_...p?p=7147#p7147

Currently, I am not sure what to make from these findings. If you more infos on these topic, it would be great
if you could share those here !

Best regards,

Archi
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-30-2018, 07:47 PM   #9
naxos
Association Member
 
naxos's Avatar
 
naxos is offline
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,474
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archi View Post
Hello !

Very interesting addition by naxos ! Thanks !
So he was "drafted" to the HUS shortly after becoming 17.
I would be very interested how long he stayed in the HUS Jülich. Is it possible to say that from the other entries ?


Best regards,

Archi
Thanks Archi

I will start another thread for this SB in the Eric-Jan Bakker Forum
  Reply With Quote

Old 03-30-2018, 07:51 PM   #10
TWS
Association Member
 
TWS's Avatar
 
TWS is offline
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,695
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by naxos View Post
Excellent tunic!

Here is a page from a Soldbuch of a Heeresunteroffizier-Vorschüler

Note; the Heeresunteroffizier-Vorschüler born in June 1925 was issued the Soldbuch in October 1942 when he was admitted to the Heeres-Unteroffizier Schule in Düren
Thanks naxos! Very interesting Soldbuch!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archi View Post

I have found a few more links regarding similar tunics :
One looks similar to yours but has a reference to a tailor in Frankfurt :
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/a...5-a5210135fe37

There is another one, which doesn't load in my browser, with a reference to tailor in Hildesheim (close to Hannover).

Perhaps even more interesting :
I found a nice photo of a soldier from a HUS, who also seems to wear a roman number (at least to me it looks like a : II) :
http://www.pixpast.com/forum/public_...p?p=7147#p7147

Archi
Yes sir The one in the link that was for sale is one I have seen before. Interesting period photo. Thanks for putting it up.
If I do learn anything further, I will definitely let you know. Thanks a ton for all of the input you have contributed.
__________________
Todd
Seeking photographs of Joachim Tiesler, DKiG Stalingrad, 3rd I.D. (mot.) and Clemens Freiherr von Fürstenberg, DKiG 7th Panzer Division.
  Reply With Quote

Old 04-07-2018, 03:37 PM   #11
TWS
Association Member
 
TWS's Avatar
 
TWS is offline
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,695
Default

"When all else fails, read the instructions".

I pulled my copy of Angolia and Schlicht off the shelf and searched until I found the appropriate section.

Turns out that with regards to the Vorschulen, that Roman numeral would indeed be the Wehrkreis, while the regular NCO academies would have the first letter of the city in which the academy was based. And it gives white as the branch/piping color for all Vorschulen at the time of the regulation Schlicht cited.
__________________
Todd
Seeking photographs of Joachim Tiesler, DKiG Stalingrad, 3rd I.D. (mot.) and Clemens Freiherr von Fürstenberg, DKiG 7th Panzer Division.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-07-2018, 12:55 PM   #12
Archi
Association Member
 
Archi is offline
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,187
Default

Hello !
Quote:
Thanks Archi
I will start another thread for this SB in the Eric-Jan Bakker Forum
That would be very nice ! Really looking forward to that !

Quote:
"When all else fails, read the instructions".
Indeed, and sometimes it even helps !!

I found some additional info in a book by Allmayer-Beck on the schools in Wiener Neustadt 1938 - 1945 :
a) It confirms, what Todd/TWS found in Angolia/Schlicht and perhaps has some additional details (see scan).
b) It also has some info on the general course of education :
- 6 weeks of basic training (after which the successful apprentices would receive their Seitengewehr)
- then 2 1/2 years of school, after which they would attend a HUS school, just as shown in the example by naxos

Some details on the H.U.-Vorschule in Wiener Neustadt :
- In the first half of 1941, further admittances to all the Vorschulen were stopped.
- The school in Wiener Neustadt became reduced from 6 to 4 companies already in February 41.
- Several of the existing HU-Vorschulen became merged in 41/42
- finally the HUVS XVII at Wiener Neustadt was closed by ~28. Feb. 1942. The 1. company was transferred to HUS Düren (!).
2.-4. co. became part of Heeres-Uffz.-Vorschule München (WK VII).

Best regards,

Archi
Attached Images
File Type: jpg HUS_Wiener_Neustadt_00.jpg (85.1 KB, 133 views)
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-07-2018, 01:08 PM   #13
TWS
Association Member
 
TWS's Avatar
 
TWS is offline
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,695
Default

Thanks again Archi. That's some good information.
__________________
Todd
Seeking photographs of Joachim Tiesler, DKiG Stalingrad, 3rd I.D. (mot.) and Clemens Freiherr von Fürstenberg, DKiG 7th Panzer Division.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-07-2018, 10:27 PM   #14
naxos
Association Member
 
naxos's Avatar
 
naxos is offline
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,474
Default

Todd, I found some photos of a Jungschuetze from 3./Heeres-Unteroffiziervorschule Tetschen (IV), in full uniform.

The pictures were taken in Tetschen (today Děčín in the Czech Republic).

Tetschen belonged to WK IV - Heeres-Unteroffiziervorschule IV was located there.


I will post the pictures soon.

Last edited by naxos; 05-07-2018 at 10:51 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-07-2018, 10:47 PM   #15
TWS
Association Member
 
TWS's Avatar
 
TWS is offline
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,695
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by naxos View Post
Todd, I found some photos of a Jungschuetze from 3./Heeres-Unteroffiziervorschule IV, in full uniform.

The pictures were taken in Tetschen (today Děčín in the Czech Republic).

Tetschen belonged to WK IV - Heeres-Unteroffiziervorschule IV was located there.


I will post the pictures soon.
Awesome! Look forward to it.
__________________
Todd
Seeking photographs of Joachim Tiesler, DKiG Stalingrad, 3rd I.D. (mot.) and Clemens Freiherr von Fürstenberg, DKiG 7th Panzer Division.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump






vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright Wehrmacht-Awards.com