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Old 12-30-2019, 08:19 AM   #16
Pieter Verbruggen
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Per request,
Pieter
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Old 12-30-2019, 05:25 PM   #17
Gary Symonds
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pieter Verbruggen View Post
Per request,
Pieter
No explanations, or excuses needed.

The real McCoy.

The eyelet is sunk deep into the flange, as it was meant to be. Never on the top.

How about a picture of the reverse.

How did you obtain it?

Last edited by Gary Symonds; 12-30-2019 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 12-30-2019, 06:58 PM   #18
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Nice to see Pieter posting. I miss seeing his stunningly rare pieces and in depth knowledge.

Thanks for posting the GC, Pieter. I believe Thies had 2 in their last auction.

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Old 12-31-2019, 12:42 AM   #19
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Nice to see Pieter posting. I miss seeing his stunningly rare pieces and in depth knowledge.

Thanks for posting the GC, Pieter. I believe Thies had 2 in their last auction.

Gary B
Gary do you know how much they sold for?
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Old 12-31-2019, 02:00 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pieter Verbruggen View Post
Per request,
Pieter
Nice one Peiter!
I have one from the same maker, cased and with original multy piece construction ribbon. More pictures can be found here

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=514731


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Gary do you know how much they sold for?


Gary cross from the auction sold for 36K euro plus commission, I have pictures of it on my work computer, I can post it later.
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Old 12-31-2019, 02:51 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Symonds View Post
......

The eyelet is sunk deep into the flange, as it was meant to be. Never on the top.
Gary never say never ..., look in some books, forum.

Iron Time 2 page 259, 1914 GC ring on top, Godet placed ring of 1914Gc on top also, now we see this 1870 with a ring on top, look on position of rings on GCs from AWS - big ek2.

Different makers had some different ideas. And I'm sure there were more frame making and cross assembling companies than those who cast iron cores, and we have a few of the same type cores in different dress up. Important is what core and the frame it has, how the ring is connected is a secondary thing.
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Old 12-31-2019, 03:48 PM   #22
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Here are the pictures of the cross from the auction.
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File Type: jpg 1870 front4.jpg (84.0 KB, 101 views)
File Type: jpg 1870 back.jpg (146.1 KB, 99 views)
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Old 12-31-2019, 03:50 PM   #23
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On the note of the quality of finishing work and cross assembly, not everything come out perfect.
Left bottom of the reverse frame got a little cut into the beading by person who was cutting out frames, little defect still went into production, the date on reverse is not centered, still ok, and if you look at the rest of the cross, soldering of the frames about the same like the cross that started this thread.
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Old 12-31-2019, 05:18 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by AlikN View Post
Here are the pictures of the cross from the auction.
Alik, thank you for the posting of the 1870 in the auction, most appreciated!

What is interesting about this example is the fact that the diameter of the eyelet appears to be larger than the awarded pieces in Iron Time. The same larger diameter eyelet is also in Pieter's example in post #16. All of the examples of the 1870 Grand Cross including my own, all appear to have an identical iron core from the same die, but have different frames with minor variences from the awarded examples depicted in Iron Time. It seems nobody can explain why these were even made. We are told that the awardee's needed duplicate examples, but why would some of the duplicate examples have frames with larger eyelets? Nobody knows!

Alik, as to the sunken eyelet, correct me if I am wrong, but looking at the awarded pieces in Iron Time, both editions, all, 1870, 1914, and even the 1939, marked L/12, and clearly not the award piece to Goring, aren't they all with a suncken eyelet, and none are attached on the top of the flange?

Last edited by Gary Symonds; 12-31-2019 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 12-31-2019, 06:50 PM   #25
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There are only few that are made with ring on top, but most are have small ring dipped into a frame. I guess it's just a choice of some makers, I don't think there were any regulations about it. Dipped in ring just a better - stronger way to connect a heavy cross, that's probably why more crosses with dipped in ring.
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Old 12-31-2019, 09:50 PM   #26
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There are only few that are made with ring on top, but most are have small ring dipped into a frame. I guess it's just a choice of some makers, I don't think there were any regulations about it. Dipped in ring just a better - stronger way to connect a heavy cross, that's probably why more crosses with dipped in ring.
Alik, per Previtera, his opinion was that there was only one maker of the awarded 1870s, and that was Wagner. He makes a good case for it in his book at page 139, that because of the small numbers needed to be made, it made no sense to "scatter" the points of production. Stephen Previtera is not the last word, but so far no other writer has challenged his opinion. So as to the location of the eyelet, I cannot agree with your opinion that the location "was just the choice of some makers." Obviously, we know that there are other good copies made, even possibly period made, but they were not made by Wagner.

Despite the differences in the frames, such as the larger eyelet in Pieter's example, or the specimen sold in the auction, or the relative coarseness in the beading of the frame on my 1870, the one common fact is that the iron core in my example, in Pieter's medal and the auction medal is that these were made from the same die as the award medals depicted in Iron Time. Why these three frames differ slightly from the award medals, is of course unknown, and their very existence is a mystery.

I cannot in good faith agree with your opinion that the quality of the assembly of my cross is the same as yours. Firstly, as I indicated in the beginning of this thread, as close as your cross is, it is not made from an original die. It does not match in my opinion. Secondly, in the link posted in this thread that shows the pictures of my 1870 posted in 2009, the solder lines are almost invisible, as compared to the thick and obvious solder line shown in the bottom of the flange of your 1870 Its here to review if you care to.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=393784
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Old 01-01-2020, 10:17 PM   #27
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Wagner possibly was the maker of award type cross, no one saying he is not.
And in the same book Previtera shows crosses from other makers page 128-129 this cross is larger than the award piece the cross of Wilhelm 1, probably an extra one that he had(since it's not an award piece) and it has the same core as cross that started this thread, which btw it's not my Gary, I think you are mistaking which cross is mine, next look at page 134-135 cross with another different core and frame, look at closeup of position of small ring - not dipped in, next page 60-61 1813GCs both have rings attached on top. Plus the ones I mentioned before, just look around, position of the ring is irrelevant to originality of the cross.

Only cross of one maker is an award type, it has ring that is dipped into frame, but there are crosses from other makers as we can see, so the rest of the crosses that made by other companies at that period are extra pieces, just like L/marked of TR . You can call them copies, but to me it's a GC by some other makers, in that way all L/ marked are copies.

And there are photo evidence of use other than award type GCs, and it was possible to see on the picture, because Godet's grand cross has small ring soldered on top. There was no rule to where the ring should be.

About the quality what I mean was, that it is kind of expected for high award like GC to be made to the highest quality of workmanship, but as we see on your example cut into a beading of the frame and not centered date, in my opinion not highest workmanship, so it is ok to have some flaws.
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Old 01-01-2020, 10:29 PM   #28
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Quote:
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Per request,
Pieter
I thought it looks familiar, if we look closer, Peiter just took a picture from the book page 137..... Nice one!
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von Manteufel’s 1970 Grand Cross
Old 01-02-2020, 12:10 AM   #29
Pieter Verbruggen
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Default von Manteufel’s 1970 Grand Cross

Dear Alik,

a) I was asked to show a 1870 GC from the Berliner Giesserei. Which are the only official awarded crosses. All the other ones you may look for a reason and accept it to keep the cross in the collection.

b) I never stated that it is a piece from my collection.

c) I would expect from anyone with knowledge on the subject would know the existing awarded examples and how they look. …I don’t have to hold the spoon till the child eats…

d) and sorry but I cannot find the accurate smiley to post …

I stopped posting a long time ago … I should have left it that way…

Pieter
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Old 01-02-2020, 12:14 AM   #30
Pieter Verbruggen
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Alik
…………… and no its not the picture in “that” book… look close… details are very importand… got the smiley
Pieter
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