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Daggers and Edged Weapons Forum This is the corner of the site where you can talk about daggers, bayonets, swords and knifes of the Wehrmacht and related organizations.

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Old 02-16-2019, 03:55 PM   #151
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Russ, I was trying to illustrate what we can prove was going on with the Bahnschutz - but let’s look at it from your perspective: May of 1935 HV 35, No. 202 the German Army approves a dagger as an addition to swords. Well experienced with the political daggers, makers either had thousands of Army daggers ready to sell, or they had to wait for samples to be copied and then startup the tooling and materials acquisition process. Forging and stamping dies, molds, etc. etc., subcontracting for grips, catalogs, advertising etc. Do you have any estimate of how long that might taken in that time period to get the Army daggers into the hands of buyers? I’m looking here for an actual estimate of the time it might have taken.

There is and has never been any kind of evidence anywhere that a so-called “1st Model Railway” dagger existed be it photo, catalog, price list, inventory etc. etc. This would also include a meeting notice, advertising in a period Railway publication, period correspondence etc. Using the suggested theory (not mine) somehow all of the Officers got together and agreed that on their own they were going to adopt a copy of the just announced Army dagger. There is no paper trail of any kind, but let’s say that they somehow mentally communicated and went out as civilians and purchased German Army daggers to convert. But who, or what organized the acquisition of both the black plastic Army grips (a number of which do show signs of paint) and the later post 1938 Railway grips. And then somehow got them back to those who purchased the Army daggers. And are you saying that none of the grips could be postwar in origin, either as leftovers acquired by scavenging, or as new decades ago from the original makers?

Also (IMO) please erase “cheap”. German Army officers had an allowance for uniforms and sidearms and unless they came from a family that was well off, if they wanted a sword or better quality uniforms it could mean making choices. That said, what was the situation for Railway officials? Fred
The fittings on the Klaas examples are generic so there would have been plenty already available, no new processes of manufacture would have been needed for these. You previously said the grips were made in long cylinders and cut to size so cutting some a bit longer would not have been a problem, again no new process would be needed. As for the longer blade tang I could not say, I have no knowledge of how the blades tangs were made to size. The blades though do have the Klaas maker mark, so are you saying this is fake? If the grips were fake do you think a faker would make them (and the blade tang) too long, and if they were scavenged then what has been already been said still applies as they would be original period grips. As for the painted ones well this could just be getting rid of stock on army daggers when the "second model" was introduced, we also see normal length Klaas grips painted. Wish I had all the answers Fred but unfortunately I don't.

Russ.
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Old 02-16-2019, 04:03 PM   #152
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The TJ account that members asked for:
JR, I'm very appreciative of your effort to post TMJ's original information, and I mean that sincerely. Fred
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Old 02-16-2019, 04:15 PM   #153
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The Alcoso maker mark looks to be their 37-39 mark, so could be ok for a "1st model railway" dagger, wish I could make out the detail on the crossguard.

Russ.
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Old 02-16-2019, 04:26 PM   #154
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The fittings on the Klaas examples are generic so there would have been plenty already available, no new processes of manufacture would have been needed for these. You previously said the grips were made in long cylinders and cut to size so cutting some a bit longer would not have been a problem, again no new process would be needed. As for the longer blade tang I could not say, I have no knowledge of how the blades tangs were made to size. The blades though do have the Klaas maker mark, so are you saying this is fake? If the grips were fake do you think a faker would make them (and the blade tang) too long, and if they were scavenged then what has been already been said still applies as they would be original period grips. As for the painted ones well this could just be getting rid of stock on army daggers when the "second model" was introduced, we also see normal length Klaas grips painted. Wish I had all the answers Fred but unfortunately I don't.

Russ.
Russ, If we are talking zinc die castings yes. Sand cast another matter, because the molds were destroyed taking out the component. Yes, the rods were long and those molds were also destroyed taking them out. The machining process separate and apart followed by polishing. The blade tangs were integral drop forged with the blades then needing to be ground down and polished. Klaas (if my memory is correct) besides a longer tang also had a hole drilled in it most probably to assist in the plating process. And as I said before I think that it's just a minor manufacturing choice that they made, maybe because of something to do with the equipment used or they thought it was easier? As before, when they started to run out of the chemicals for the white grips some Solingen makers went to substitutes like painted wood or plastic. Fred

Last edited by Frogprince; 02-16-2019 at 04:45 PM. Reason: clarifications
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Old 02-16-2019, 04:37 PM   #155
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The Alcoso maker mark looks to be their 37-39 mark, so could be ok for a "1st model railway" dagger, wish I could make out the detail on the crossguard.

Russ.
Russ, On my monitor I could not find an identifiable maker mark for the Army, but I think I've counted the number of grip segments correctly. I don't want to impact in any way anyone else who has counted them, but I would be curious to know if everyone is on the same page. Fred
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Old 02-16-2019, 05:36 PM   #156
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It is so obvious for so many reasons people do not buy reference books on here. I still do not call this dagger by name however, there is a rumor for which daggers "may" truly be 1st model RR and which "may" be black handle armies with the paint removed.
These reference books are fun reads, secondly there are so many people asking about fakes on here that are pictured in "Reproduction? Recognition!"! If you collect daggers you really should have the TJ and TW books also! Fred S. is not paying me to say that either!
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Old 02-16-2019, 06:22 PM   #157
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[QUOTE=BobI;8379075]there is a rumor for which daggers "may" truly be 1st model RR and which "may" be black handle armies with the paint removed.

Hi Bob, would you be kind enough to share what you have learned about this rumour?

Russ.
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Old 02-16-2019, 06:51 PM   #158
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The Alcoso maker mark looks to be their 37-39 mark, so could be ok for a "1st model railway" dagger, wish I could make out the detail on the crossguard.

Russ.
Just looked in Heeresdolche and if its the maker mark I think it is its dated 36-40 on an army dagger, I was going by a navy dagger.

Russ.
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Old 02-16-2019, 07:52 PM   #159
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I wish that TMJ had been a little more specific in his description than: "nondescript Third Reich-era service bayonet". German Railway service bayonets have some characteristics that set them apart from ordinary German Army/Wehrmacht bayonets. FP
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Old 02-17-2019, 06:07 AM   #160
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Post 20 of the warrelics forum thread shows the long blade tang, there is a distinct darker area on the tang, could this be anything to do with the lengthening of the tang either period or post war. Perhaps from being heated. I don't know if they are all like this.

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/heer/1...railway+dagger

Russ.
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Old 02-17-2019, 06:11 AM   #161
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I have the books by Th. Johnson. I've looked at the picture of that black grip army on page 113. I needed a magnifying glass to see the crossguard.

The crossguard is a type 4 Eickhorn. For me any Alcoso army dagger with a type 4 Eickhorn crossguard is a parts dagger. Yes, I can hear some experts say: "anything is possible and we don't know everything". To those I can just say: you have the right to believe what you want.

Now to the story of mr. Johnson:

Mr. Johnson claims that the dagger was given to Hermann Benz by the former owner when he retired. I find it highly unlikely that someone would give away his dagger after active duty. Another quiestion is, when did this first owner receive his dagger in the first place?

The crossguard on the "Railway dagger" of mr. Johnson is the last one that Eickhorn used (type 4). This guard was introduced in 1937. That means the first owner must have been on active duty in 1937. I find it hard to believe that he got a dagger, had it engraved and give it a way a few months later.

Like I said earlier I still can't explain why there never are any early crossguards on these "1935 Railway daggers". ALL army daggers that were produced in 1935 have an early crossguard. The generic crossguards as well as the type 4 Eickhorn crossguards were produced a couple of years later.

The only explanation I have for all of this, is that the story of mr. Benz and his Railway dagger was made up.

Regards
Danny
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Old 02-17-2019, 06:40 AM   #162
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I agree with Danny, Eickhorn and Alcoso are not known to use each others parts. The generic guards and Eickhorn type 4 though do fit into the time frame before 1938 when the so-called 2nd model was introduced, but I do think the Johnson story is made up. I'm wobbling all over on this fence lol.

Russ.
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:29 PM   #163
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[QUOTE=Bulldog;8379119]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobI View Post
there is a rumor for which daggers "may" truly be 1st model RR and which "may" be black handle armies with the paint removed.

Hi Bob, would you be kind enough to share what you have learned about this rumour?

Russ.
Hi Russ!
With my background in science and medicine I really do not like to speculate. I did get this information from someone like a "Barry Brown" someone everyone likes and respects. I took it with a grain of salt since I do not like to speculate but the more I see the more I like his idea. TJs dagger appears to have the feature I want to see. The theory is looking better and better as I learn more.
I plan on running around the SOS to find black gripped 1stRR/Army daggers to compare. I will probably also compare notes with some of the dagger gurus too.
Bob
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Old 02-17-2019, 04:25 PM   #164
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Ok thanks Bob that sounds interesting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
Post 20 of the warrelics forum thread shows the long blade tang, there is a distinct darker area on the tang, could this be anything to do with the lengthening of the tang either period or post war. Perhaps from being heated. I don't know if they are all like this.

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/heer/1...railway+dagger

Russ.
Anyone have any thoughts on the dark area of the blade tang and if anyone has one of these do you know if yours is the same.

Russ.
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Old 02-17-2019, 04:44 PM   #165
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Yes, the Klaas blade is plated. They don’t plate all the way thru the threads.
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