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View Poll Results: Bacqueville Kriegsmarine Badges are...
...perfectly acceptable as originals for me 266 49.08%
...a postwar invention, all are fakes 110 20.30%
...something I cannot make my mind up about either way 112 20.66%
...who the Facqueville? What is it? 54 9.96%
Voters: 542. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-28-2004, 07:13 PM   #16
Brian S
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Jos, you're preaching to the choir. The people who voted against it didn't state why...
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Stumpf, Werner (15 March 1917 – 13 October 1942)
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Old 01-28-2004, 07:16 PM   #17
Kecon
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Before anyone gets on his high horse. In my post, I meant no disrespect
towards Mr Lumsden. I have several of his books and use them often for
reference. His reference to French badges only sounds similar to those we
are discussing. You can judge the similarity for yourself. I shall remain neutral.

Ken
 

Old 01-28-2004, 09:00 PM   #18
Lorenzo Brown
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Hi Ken. I certainly did not read any disrespect in your thread. Nor did I intend any disrespect to Robin. I also think that his book contains much valuable information, and I commend him for it. However...

...It is interesting to note that Mr. Lumsden, on this Forum, has cast dispersions on French-made KM badges in general. He makes NO distinction between cast-in zinc badges versus die-forged brass badges. In the 2000 edition of his book, however, he SPECIFICALLY refers ONLY to die-forged brass badges as those having been made in the 1970's. He makes NO REFERENCE to the zinc badges. Nor does he display pictures of either type of badge.

Therefore, one can only assume that his reference to the fake badges was regarding the die-forged brass badges.....NOT the zinc badges.

I think this is an EXTREMELY important issue, since his post on this Forum seemed to pertain to ALL French-made KM Badges, and many collectors might be questioning their collections based upon his comments.

I am also looking forward to Mr. Lumsden's reply to this thread.

Last edited by Lorenzo Brown; 01-28-2004 at 11:24 PM.
 

Old 01-29-2004, 09:35 AM   #19
Kecon
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Lorenzo

Currently Mr. Weitze has several Bacqueville offerings on his web site.
Two of wich are described as being in buntmetal. You can look at them
at www.weitze.com and decide for yourself. Not being at all knowledgeable
about these, I'll refrain from making any judgements.

Regards
Ken
 

Old 01-29-2004, 10:35 AM   #20
Robin Lumsden
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Everyone please note.

You can say ANYTHING you like about me and I will NOT be offended.

It's called FREE SPEECH.

After the slagging I got across the front pages of the papers in this country a couple of years ago, I developed such a thick skin that I am now


100% IMMUNE TO CRITICISM !!!
 

Old 01-29-2004, 10:42 AM   #21
Brian S
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When it turns personal, it loses all value. I don't think that will happen here.

I repeat my question: Is there any basis in fact for assuming these are made in France by Bacqueville?
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Stumpf, Werner (15 March 1917 – 13 October 1942)
Frank, Rudolf

Looking for photos, documents.

Last edited by Brian S; 01-29-2004 at 10:49 AM.
 

Here's a thought!
Old 01-29-2004, 10:45 AM   #22
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Wink Here's a thought!

Maybe some of Prosper's buddies that were making the other fakes made these too?
 

Ouch !!!!
Old 01-29-2004, 11:48 AM   #23
Kecon
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Default Ouch !!!!

Fare enough, Robin. I respect your position.
However. Have you received any new information, concerning these
French types, to make you form any new opinions about their authenticity?
If so, could you share that with us? Maybe you could help solve this mystery.

Best regards
Ken
 

Old 01-29-2004, 11:50 AM   #24
Chris Boonzaier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian S
Jos, you're preaching to the choir. The people who voted against it didn't state why...
"Es ist grundsätzlich unerwünscht, dass der Handel mit Deutschen Orden und Ehrenzeichen von ausländischen Firmen betriebe wird. Ein Bedürfnis heirfür kann auch nicht anerkannt werden, das Inhaber deutscher Auszeichnungensich Ersatz oder Zweitstücke ohne grosse Mühe von einer Frima aus dem Reich beschafte können."

So much to official production by french firms....
 

Old 01-29-2004, 11:56 AM   #25
George Stimson
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"Unerwunscht," nicht "verboten."

And... has anyone claimed that the production was "official"?
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Old 01-29-2004, 12:00 PM   #26
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And speaking of the LDO and translations, I never got an answer to this question that I raised in the other thread almost a year ago:

I've been doing some thinking about these badges myself, and one thing I've thought about is the question of the LDO and why these examples may not conform to its standards.
"LDO" is short for "Leistungsgemienschaft Deutscher Ordernshersteller." If my high school and college German serves me correctly, that translates (roughly) as "Performace Association of German Awards Manufacturers."
Now, since "Ordernshersteller" is one word, that indicates to me that the performance association was overseeing German manufacturers (i.e., manufacturers which were located in Germany -- "Deutscher" modifies "Hersteller," not "Orderns"), and was therefore possibly not overseeing all versions of German awards that might have been made in a non-German country, such as France.
So, maybe the LDO didn't have any jurisdiction over (or concern with) versions of German awards made in France.
Thoughts?
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Old 01-29-2004, 12:06 PM   #27
Brian S
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Yes French firms.

What is a German firm?

A firm 'owned' and run by Germans, no?

Does its geographical location define whether it is German or does its ownership.

I would assume ownership, or, occupation.

You are familiar with force majeur ?
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Stumpf, Werner (15 March 1917 – 13 October 1942)
Frank, Rudolf

Looking for photos, documents.
 

Old 01-29-2004, 12:23 PM   #28
Chris Boonzaier
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Unfortunately lost on my old computer (gordon or someone may be able to supply them again)

are examples of products being sent to the LDO in order for the LDO to inspect them...... before the LDO gave the companies authorisation to make them.

Companies could not just decide to make badges... they gave tenders, examples and were then given permission/contracts if the need was there and the quality had been approved.

A bit more study of these rules would help in forming an opinion as to whether the French were allowed to just make these, or just made "period fakes"


""""""Unerwunscht," nicht "verboten."

And... has anyone claimed that the production was "official"?""""""

Bingo... so if the Froggies did make and sell them under the counter.... what do you have? An old curiosity piece?
 

I only have one -- Auxiliary Cruiser
Old 01-29-2004, 12:25 PM   #29
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Default I only have one -- Auxiliary Cruiser

"what do you have? An old curiosity piece?"

I've never really considered it anything else.
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Old 01-29-2004, 12:30 PM   #30
Michel
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Hello,
I think that "Bacqueville" is the distribute and "Mourgeon" the maker.
No problems in France with this badges.
Regards
Michel
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