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In NATO tank competition, U.S. comes up short against Germany
Old 05-17-2016, 09:20 AM   #1
birdie
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Default In NATO tank competition, U.S. comes up short against Germany

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ainst-germany/


Some things are in the DNA
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Old 05-17-2016, 12:27 PM   #2
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I have definitely nothing against Americans, but that doesn't surprise me at all.
I've participated several Inter-Allied competitions/ exercices and the US nearly everytime bailed out/ had no radio contact/ wrong coordinates/ gave up/...

But they have one advantage: the mass of material ressources

A lot of huahua but not that (physical/ mental) quality

Panzer Vor!
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Old 05-17-2016, 12:41 PM   #3
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Hard to beat the Germans in armor and really, really sick porn

Armor has been the ugly step-child for the DoD for years, why use a tank when you have an Apache/artillery/drone? With the end of the Cold War the armored branch has really suffered. I suppose they're betting that the day of heavy armor is over and money is better spent elsewhere.
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Ha !
Old 05-17-2016, 02:07 PM   #4
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Default Ha !

LOL Blinky
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Old 05-18-2016, 06:04 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinky View Post
Armor has been the ugly step-child for the DoD for years, why use a tank when you have an Apache/artillery/drone? With the end of the Cold War the armored branch has really suffered. I suppose they're betting that the day of heavy armor is over and money is better spent elsewhere.
But almost all the thinkers in the US Army are now publicly admitting that it was a mistake to remove all the US armored units from Europe a few years ago, and now they are calling for a full-up US armor brigade to be permanently stationed in Europe again. Those in the US Army who decided that the tank was dead after Desert Storm, deluded themselves.
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:54 AM   #6
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Some things are in the DNA
Ha! That was my first thought when I read the thread title.
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Old 05-18-2016, 08:19 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Walden View Post
But almost all the thinkers in the US Army are now publicly admitting that it was a mistake to remove all the US armored units from Europe a few years ago, and now they are calling for a full-up US armor brigade to be permanently stationed in Europe again. Those in the US Army who decided that the tank was dead after Desert Storm, deluded themselves.
That's great to hear Hopefully they'll invest in training as well as a little new research and development too.
Gizmos are great, but sometimes you just need a tank.
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:29 AM   #8
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Just heard that Rheinmetall is developing a new 130mm tank gun to counter the New generation of Russian MBT T14 Armata

It will be installed in a new turret but based on the Leopard 2A7 one.

And Germany is going to Increase their military with 14000. Three quarters of them in combat units.
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:31 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JanC View Post
I have definitely nothing against Americans, but that doesn't surprise me at all.
I've participated several Inter-Allied competitions/ exercices and the US nearly everytime bailed out/ had no radio contact/ wrong coordinates/ gave up/...

But they have one advantage: the mass of material ressources

A lot of huahua but not that (physical/ mental) quality

Panzer Vor!
Jan,

You comments really PISS ME OFF

You generalizations carry no weight. It would be comparable to me saying that all Dutch soldiers are pot-smoking liberal socialists who could not fight well on the ground. That comment holds no credibility either, so I will not let it stand as an opinion of mine. I worked with Dutch officers in Afghanistan and found them every bit capable and dedicated.

The American soldier, pound for pound shows an immense level of courage, determination and loyalty to his unit, even if fighting along side Hollanders In every engagement of late, few can measure up to the level of aggressiveness and ferocity of a US soldier. Our airmen are no different. Just ask someone who has worked with a pararescueman or an A-10 pilot.

The point here is that an abandonment of the former US position on the use of heavy armor is to blame. The transition from the Armored Division into the maneuver brigade with fast, lightly armored wheel vehicles is to blame. The US abandoned, both financially and doctrinally, the notion that the world needs US Armored Divisions.

I also ask you to remember who stood at the forefront on the East German border for many years. Young men who were willing to give their lives so that Holland could have a few days to prepare to evacuate your people to Paris should the Russian hoard attack. I was there for 4 years in the early 80's with the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment. There were not many Dutch tanks to help me. I have deployed to Europe, Columbia, Bosnia and Afghanistan. Have you left Holland for such reasons? Were you willing to risk your life for something? These men who you denigrate were there to keep you safe. Remember that. If you have deployed, then you understand my point and should rethink your position.

Remember that we are still Allies and the US bears the financial burden of defending Europe. The US contributes over 22% of the total costs of NATO and the Netherlands slightly more than 3%. It is fine for you to criticize ALL US troops as being "A lot of huahua but not that (physical/ mental) quality" It seems our huahua as you call it is giving you the freedom to spout off without thinking.

Please do not end your comments on such a note my friend.
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:34 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JanC View Post
I have definitely nothing against Americans, but that doesn't surprise me at all.
I've participated several Inter-Allied competitions/ exercices and the US nearly everytime bailed out/ had no radio contact/ wrong coordinates/ gave up/...

But they have one advantage: the mass of material ressources

A lot of huahua but not that (physical/ mental) quality

Panzer Vor!
Well listen to you, no need to be indirect, we're quite used to anti-American envy, arrogance and hate here. Can't blame you for feeling side lined.


Please feel free to speak for yourself after bailing out and giving up during the 2nd big one. As far as the first WW big one , I don't even need to go there. So what's your excuse, the U.S. has the balls and was good enough to make the sacrifice in blood to liberate your folks, that's what the U.S. bailed out after you quit.

I don't know what kind of unit(s) or armed conflict you were in but I would thrive to meet the physical/mental challenge imposed. Like i'm sure you're really gonn'a be mess'in up our world.

Constantly hearing that the USA was only successful due to immensity of material, partially right, and so was the rest of the allies including Russia with lend lease. The Allies were basically getting their ass beat until the U.S had to step in and set things straight as usual.

Otherwise, no bad blood to you JanC, just saying!

-Ray-

Last edited by -Ray-; 05-18-2016 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 05-18-2016, 09:35 AM   #11
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My previous comments take nothing away from the immense professionalism and dedication of the panzermen of today's Bundeswehr. They are superb tacticians, they know how to employ their equipment and they are professional in every sense of the word. My family is 1/2 German so I think i understand how they think and live better than the average American.

Here is an image of a day in my life in Afghanistan...and yes, I flew sorties in support of European soldiers on the ground under threat of attack by Taliban.
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Old 05-18-2016, 01:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 17thairborne View Post
Jan,

You comments really PISS ME OFF

You generalizations carry no weight. It would be comparable to me saying that all Dutch soldiers are pot-smoking liberal socialists who could not fight well on the ground. That comment holds no credibility either, so I will not let it stand as an opinion of mine. I worked with Dutch officers in Afghanistan and found them every bit capable and dedicated.

The American soldier, pound for pound shows an immense level of courage, determination and loyalty to his unit, even if fighting along side Hollanders In every engagement of late, few can measure up to the level of aggressiveness and ferocity of a US soldier. Our airmen are no different. Just ask someone who has worked with a pararescueman or an A-10 pilot.

The point here is that an abandonment of the former US position on the use of heavy armor is to blame. The transition from the Armored Division into the maneuver brigade with fast, lightly armored wheel vehicles is to blame. The US abandoned, both financially and doctrinally, the notion that the world needs US Armored Divisions.

I also ask you to remember who stood at the forefront on the East German border for many years. Young men who were willing to give their lives so that Holland could have a few days to prepare to evacuate your people to Paris should the Russian hoard attack. I was there for 4 years in the early 80's with the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment. There were not many Dutch tanks to help me. I have deployed to Europe, Columbia, Bosnia and Afghanistan. Have you left Holland for such reasons? Were you willing to risk your life for something? These men who you denigrate were there to keep you safe. Remember that. If you have deployed, then you understand my point and should rethink your position.

Remember that we are still Allies and the US bears the financial burden of defending Europe. The US contributes over 22% of the total costs of NATO and the Netherlands slightly more than 3%. It is fine for you to criticize ALL US troops as being "A lot of huahua but not that (physical/ mental) quality" It seems our huahua as you call it is giving you the freedom to spout off without thinking.

Please do not end your comments on such a note my friend.
Well Oz,

First of all I'm not Dutch seems like the Americans are having problems with geography too 2nd I've been to Afghanistan, Kosovo and 2 times East-Congo. So I think I know what I'm talking about. There is my point you guys have all the resources so you can use every tool you need. We did a raid in Africa with 30 teams and the Americans bailed out. We were first. They prefer to take the chopper in stead of the backpack and the boots. Check the list of all the CAT tank fire results... We were nearly Always in the top 3.

So not only Americans are willing to risk their lives... And the fact that there were no "Dutch" tanks is due to the fact that the politicians didn't want to involve any. I'm talking about the skills and knowledge.

I've worked with US troops but they are definitely not better than us. That is for sure. But as I said before...you have the money we don't.

Don't take it to hard Oz, I was happy to see those A10's flying around in Afghanistan
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Old 05-18-2016, 01:59 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Ray- View Post
Well listen to you, no need to be indirect, we're quite used to anti-American envy, arrogance and hate here. Can't blame you for feeling side lined.


Please feel free to speak for yourself after bailing out and giving up during the 2nd big one. As far as the first WW big one , I don't even need to go there. So what's your excuse, the U.S. has the balls and was good enough to make the sacrifice in blood to liberate your folks, that's what the U.S. bailed out after you quit.

I don't know what kind of unit(s) or armed conflict you were in but I would thrive to meet the physical/mental challenge imposed. Like i'm sure you're really gonn'a be mess'in up our world.

Constantly hearing that the USA was only successful due to immensity of material, partially right, and so was the rest of the allies including Russia with lend lease. The Allies were basically getting their ass beat until the U.S had to step in and set things straight as usual.

Otherwise, no bad blood to you JanC, just saying!

-Ray-
Hi Ray,

As far as I know we didn't bail out in the first one... We stood for 4 years on the river Yser from 1914 till 1918. The US stepped in the war from 1917 onwards...in France...

You won the second big one because of the immense mass of material and air superiority.

And setting things straight as usual? What are you talking about? Nam? Iraq? Afghanistan? Syria?

I won't name any unit because I'm still in it. And I'm more than sure I will not be messed up in "your" world. That is a good one

It was not my intention to hurt someone. I do respect all NATO and other military formations, let that be clear.

I was talking about exercises like the article in Birdies thread stated. And my (and our forces) finding was that the US forces were not Always the best...

Cheers
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Old 05-18-2016, 04:48 PM   #14
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Gentlemen, please calm down.

I served in the German Army for 12 years, in different countries and with different Allies.

We ever were glad to have US planes over us or Brits or French units nearby (sorry for didn´t had any contacs to Belgium units). On a lot of exercises I saw that other armies had their own problems like we had ours.

And that German tanks are better than US, Brits or French, hey, we are knowing how to build heavy and expensive tanks and how to drill the crews on it (for joke, boys, of course)

regards
Frank
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Old 05-18-2016, 05:32 PM   #15
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Early 1970's in Germany were good times. I remember seeing guys in the Bundeswehr with haircuts just like the one in the photo below walking around downtown in uniform. Interesting how military grooming standards continue to evolve over time. They were good soldiers back then just as they are today. No different from the honorable and good service of there US counterparts. Point is you cannot always judge a book by it's cover just from the small example you happen to be observing at the time.
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