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SD FJ Helmet shell, opinions please
Old 04-13-2018, 10:33 AM   #1
Zip3120
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Default SD FJ Helmet shell, opinions please

Hi guys

Here are some pics of what is unfortunately a shell only.
I already posted these photos in the helmets section of waf and I received flattering comments. Please I would also like to know the comments of Fallschirmjäger collectors.

Many thanks
Marco















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Old 04-15-2018, 09:38 AM   #2
Zip3120
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Hi guys
please are there no opinions on this shell?

I want to share you these bolts and nuts that the seller gave me with the shell.
He said they came with it. We can see trace of paint and sand on the heads of the bolts... Could they be original ones?
If yes how many pieces are missing? There were only three nuts... One of them has a closed hole and two have a passing hole.



























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Old 04-15-2018, 11:14 AM   #3
Willi Z.
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What are the bolts made from? Steel or aluminum?

Do you really think that camo is original?
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Old 04-15-2018, 12:47 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willi Z. View Post
What are the bolts made from? Steel or aluminum?

Do you really think that camo is original?
Hi Willy
bolts are made in steel...
About the helmet I am waiting for competent opinions...
For this reason I posted it here, though in waf helmet section it has been judged good.
Grazie
Marco
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Old 04-15-2018, 03:45 PM   #5
Sturm 74
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I'd say camo has some chances but better exemine in hands..to bad about screw out bolts and possible inner parts ..you still need 5 nuts
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:03 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willi Z. View Post
What are the bolts made from? Steel or aluminum?

Do you really think that camo is original?
Willi, do you have concerns about camo ?
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Old 04-16-2018, 05:34 AM   #7
martin guerre
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Just a no no no for the camo job imho
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:31 AM   #8
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I like this rare kind of camo.
I saw one like it in some photos of Italian campaign.
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fj helmet
Old 04-16-2018, 06:47 AM   #9
peter bos
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Default fj helmet

helmet is original and the decal is also an original one.

Camo is difficult to say.
What I find strange is that the edge of the helmet and also the screws of the helmet looks like ground or water founds. How does that match with the helmet decal and the camo-concrete which absolutely do no have a water/ground dug shine ? And why is it only the shell, which is in a nice condition an no (traces) of a liner ?

Best
Peter
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Old 04-16-2018, 08:25 AM   #10
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I just can't find myself liking it. Look at the rim pitting on the right side of this photo. That, as well as the excessive corrosion on the bolts/ nuts, do not match the camo.

I have yet to see a camo with the decal exposed in a triangle that wasn't fake. It is concrete or layers of sand in the paint? Looks like sand to me. Note the edge around the decal which also then has a paint line which went beyond the sand/ concrete.

What happened to the camo where the bolts where? Where the bolts knocked through the camo, or the camo applied around the bolt area? Why would they not have applied the heavy camo over the bolts?

Also, the tan paint, which appears to have been sprayed, is on the shell where the concrete/ sand is missing. How is that possible? Also note that the bolt hole on the decal side of the helmet has an area of spray beneath the hole.

Would like to see more rim views so we can see if the camo has naturally worn off.
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg 347xmw7.jpg (112.5 KB, 275 views)
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:27 PM   #11
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Hi Guys
many thanks for your opinions... finally I have been able to generate a nice discussion about this shell. Unfortunately it did not happen in the helmets section. Here the shell had been judged by other good experts to be unanimously good.
Now I want to synthesize the situation.
we all agree in saying the shell and decal are original but Camo is considered by some experts good, by others doubtful or disputed.

Willi and Peter said the camo does not match with the bad condition of bolts and part of the rim.
I agree with them because I think the bolts are not original to the shell. I think that dating of the shell is not correct with the pattern of this bolts. I think the seller gave me those bolts and nuts to entice me, to make me easy the restoring of the helmet.
In the week end I’ll post more pics of the rim to analyse it better, as it is really in bad condition only in little parts.

Willi in a careful examination I can say the camouflage effect is not given to sand but something very similar to cement mortar which in some places of the shell is not thick enough showing badly the original paint, that assumes a vaguely mustard color.
Therefore what you see in the photos is not an underlying painting but only areas of transparency.

I think the heavy camo was applied over the original bolts too, then they had been eliminated for an unknown reason.

We can clearly see tears of the cement around the holes.













We don't know why liner (of which there is an evident trace inside the shell) and bolts had been removed to this helmet, but I can say that after the war Italian countrymen used many helmets as work equipment on their farms.

About 40 years ago one of my first helmets was a beautiful Austrian M16 found by me in a farm stable on a shelf, perfectly preserved but unfortunately deprived of its liner. He waited like this for years without ever having been definitively transformed...
Probably this helmet suffered the same fate, perhaps it laid down for years in a slightly damp area to softly ruin its edge.


Marco

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Old 04-16-2018, 07:15 PM   #12
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Hi Marco, the discussion in the helmet section was focused on your request to authenticate the decal. Once you presented the camo, very little was said. Anyhow, I would like to see close-ups of where the concrete is missing, and the area around the decal. To me, the area around the decal is the only area where the original shell color is present.

You had mentioned earlier there is some tan and sand on the bolt heads. Could we see that?

On most camo FJ helmets, but especially on "heavy" camo applied ones, the decal was covered. How do you think the concrete was applied, and how were the lines around the decal so straight? And then the paint spray?
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Old 04-17-2018, 03:08 AM   #13
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Dear Willi
many thanks for your constructive collaboration. I really would like to fully understand the value of camouflage of this helmet.
Tomorrow I'll post pics of what you want.
Ciao
Marco
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Old 04-18-2018, 10:05 AM   #14
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Hi Willi
here are some pics you required

areas where the concrete is missing
here we can foresee under a thin yellowish gray layer (in my opinion the liquid component of the mixture) the original color










area around the decal we can see two edges, in my opinion one of the liquid and one of the solid component of the mixture used













rim views














Edge of the helmet, not so eroded









images of the bolts







Many thanks, please tell me if you need other pics.
I really appreciate your precious collaboration.

Ciao
Marco
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Old 04-18-2018, 03:00 PM   #15
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Actually, I don't see anything to conclusively condemn the shell as it exists in the photos provided!! Still, as previously mentioned, a hands-on inspection by others would not only likely yield a consensus about most, perhaps all, of those issues particular to this shell, but such would, at a minimum, narrow down the issue/ issues where differences in opinion remain.

Notwithstanding the aforesaid, I too am troubled by the severe deterioration seen at some areas along the rim, but considering the condition of the exterior factory finish, the decal, and the interior as depicted in the photos, I am more inclined to give the shell the "benefit of the doubt" in the meantime until further evidence is produced to convincingly condemn the shell.

AND WILLI: I seem to recall you posting a MAGNIFICENT chicken-wired FJ helmet with a W/SS camo sniper veil affixed to the front; my recollection of the "story" behind its discovery was the vet had several helmets that, at some point during their storage, had been exposed to a corrosive substance/ liquid. Further, this corrosive substance's contact with the stacked helmets caused noticeable damage that, if later judged/ evaluated on this forum without the benefit of knowing those circumstances, would have certainly been correctly identified as 'non-natural wear', AND if subsequently cleaned, may have encouraged doubts/ criticism of the items' authenticity on account of such; correct? Accordingly, is it beyond the realm of possibilities that this shell experienced a similar fate?

I offer this proposition to merely account for the obvious discrepancy between areas of the helmet's rim and the rest of the helmet's condition; I am NOT suggesting a hypothetical situation to support/ defend the camo finish itself, as such is ALMOST NEVER a recommended approach to evaluate/ authenticate camo finishes.

LASTLY WILLI, you declare that you have never seen an authentic camo'd helmet with a carefully masked-off decal area that, specifically, forms a triangular shape. Well, given the substantial weight your opinion carries here, beyond your capacity as merely a moderator, then it is my belief that by offering such comments to support your opinion that this shell is not original, is actually somewhat contrary to the cardinal rule of judging an item on its own merits &/or the (apparent) facts as they are being presented. No?

As a result, I urge caution and consideration for the possible ramifications of doing such, even though by expressing my opinion, just as you have done, likely places me at risk of appearing like I've singled you out to further an agenda &/or personal dislike of you, which is NOT the case! Rather, the true purpose in so doing is that not long ago, I distinctly recall you declaring with absolute certainty that a size 73 FJ shell "never existed", which we now know is incorrect. Thus, such an confidently expressed opinion now known to be erroneous may have been relied upon by others to their detriment (btw: this is meant to be illustrative, not literal per se, given the extreme rarity of 73 sized FJ shells).

Consequently, WITH THE UTMOST RESPECT FOR YOU, PERSONALLY, AND FOR YOUR WELL DESERVED/ RECOGNIZED 'COLLECTING ACUMEN', I POLITELY suggest for the time being that you direct your critique to the helmet itself (which admittedly you have done for the most part in each of your comments), AND, perhaps even show the slightest objectivity for a potential departure from those 'typically accepted norms' that you have formed/ identified from YOUR subjective experiences. Otherwise, by simply sharing (at this early stage of the discussion) YOUR subjective opinions/ personalized experiences concerning the presence of a triangular-shaped decal area on a camo helmet, such might (and usually does in other situations) have the unintended effects of EITHER discouraging comments/ opinions from other members who might be inclined to contribute, AND/OR, fostering a "bandwagon" reaction from members to merely post a supporting reply, without any substance, simply to share alongside in your 'expertise', which I fully recognize is undoubtedly the result of YEARS of examining countless examples & untold hours of study.

To be clear, I am not criticizing you for offering your opinions because members obviously offer items for the expressed purpose of soliciting your well deserved/ respected opinion; rather, I am merely suggesting you present an appearance of being more objective/open-minded to possibilities at the early stages of a discussion (if such is clearly warranted), rather than being inclined to quickly offer your subjective experiences that the majority of other members don't share equally with you, and, which may stifle, instead of encouraging, a constructive dialog (notwithstanding those instances where members who DO harbor an agenda against you and simply wish to be contrary, offer dissenting opinions freely and often!).

I realize I will be grilled over this reply, and probably rightfully so, irrespective of the fact that I found it extremely difficult to convey my sincere, unbiased suggestion in a comprehensive manner without appearing as though I actually harbor ill-will towards you &/or seeming like I was suggesting you not participate &/or share your extremely valuable expertise; quite the contrary.

In any event, I hope you are somehow capable of understanding my intent and the cautionary suggestion I was attempting to convey. If I (likely) failed, then my sincerest apologies to you and everyone else!
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