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Kuban and Krim shield by Friedrich Ort
Old 11-26-2017, 04:40 AM   #1
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Default Kuban and Krim shield by Friedrich Ort

Hello!

Я считаю, что прижимная пластина сделана одним штампом. Обратите внимание на характерный изгиб (отметил красным).
I believe that the pressure plate is made with one stamp. Notice the characteristic bend (marked in red).








Last edited by Pascal H.; 11-27-2017 at 03:37 AM. Reason: Translation into English
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Old 11-26-2017, 04:41 AM   #2
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Before I created this topic, I looked through a dozen of these shields.
Of course, they were put on assembly in this way, then so - so we can observe a characteristic bend, then to the right, then to the left.













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Old 11-26-2017, 04:43 AM   #3
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I show the Crimea and the Kuban.
And with a probability of 99% I will say that the Kuban did Orth.



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Old 11-27-2017, 03:45 AM   #4
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Very interesting observation!!
I think that this is the first time that the backing plate became more interesting than the shield itself.
Thanks for sharing your conclusions Железный.

Based on your observations I also agree that we now can place the maker Friedrich Orth on this type of Kuban.

Kr
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Old 11-27-2017, 04:37 AM   #5
Antonio Scapini
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It is indeed interesting.
I think this is a good link, but not enough to determine is that Kuban was really made from Orth.
The reason is simple: We know makers produced the shields, but not the back plates, because they were possibly produced from suppliers (as for the hinge and catches for the badges).
In fact in LDO shops soldiers can buy only the shield, the cloth or the back plate separately. Is it possible that the maker provided only to sell the shield and we cannot be sure about the back plates. Many different makers used the same hardware system because they had the same supplier.
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Old 11-27-2017, 05:10 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal H. View Post
Very interesting observation!!
I think that this is the first time that the backing plate became more interesting than the shield itself.
Thanks for sharing your conclusions Железный.

Based on your observations I also agree that we now can place the maker Friedrich Orth on this type of Kuban.

Kr
Pascal
Thank you, Pascal. That's not all. To be continued.
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Old 11-27-2017, 05:30 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio Scapini View Post
It is indeed interesting.
I think this is a good link, but not enough to determine is that Kuban was really made from Orth.
The reason is simple: We know makers produced the shields, but not the back plates, because they were possibly produced from suppliers (as for the hinge and catches for the badges).
In fact in LDO shops soldiers can buy only the shield, the cloth or the back plate separately. Is it possible that the maker provided only to sell the shield and we cannot be sure about the back plates. Many different makers used the same hardware system because they had the same supplier.
I thought about these, but after looking at other shields I came to the conclusion that each manufacturer had its own plate. Especially for the production of as for the hinge and catches for the badges, equipment is needed. To manufacture a pressure plate, only a die is needed. Ordering it is the production, time and excess logistics.
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:36 AM   #8
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I agree that this is logic. And I tend to belive the same (I always thought the shield makers produced their plates too).
But my starting point for research is only one: we need real, solid, unquestionable proofs to support our researches, speculation is not enough.
I agree this is a good link that lead us toward Orth, but IMO we still are in the "attributable" phase, not in the "made from" one.

Maybe we can find some flaw in the bending prongs process that can confirm what you say? For sure if we could find something like that the connection would be really completed.

BTW: good work indeed.
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Old 11-27-2017, 03:38 PM   #9
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And why then Frederik Ort hasn't put the logo in Kuban?
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Old 11-27-2017, 04:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stive View Post
And why then Frederik Ort hasn't put the logo in Kuban?
I do not know, probably for the same reason that he did not stamp all the signs.
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Old 11-27-2017, 04:36 PM   #11
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Equated - the geometry is the same. Even the length of the mustache with his wife with the help of a thread was measured, but if it were not for her eyeshot, I would not have noticed, probably. - If you look at the shield from above, we will see "the teeth of the crocodile", which coincide on the 5 shields (3 of the Crimea, 2 Kuban).
And according to the scans, some of the topics are clearly visible.
To scan from above I can not,
but pointed to the image, I'm sure you'll understand who has the shields on his hands, can check.

Now I can say with a 100% probability that this is Ort.

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Old 11-27-2017, 04:56 PM   #12
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But what I was driving all this to ...
I compared not only the Orts Krim and Kuban, but also the disputable manufacturer of the Krim, whom we do not recognize. Including I was an ardent opponent.

In the image under the numbers 2 and 3 we see exactly his mustache (2 different shields).





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Old 11-27-2017, 04:57 PM   #13
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Image 1 and 4 - Kuban and Krim Ort.
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Old 11-28-2017, 03:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Железный View Post
But what I was driving all this to ...
I compared not only the Orts Krim and Kuban, but also the disputable manufacturer of the Krim, whom we do not recognize. Including I was an ardent opponent.

In the image under the numbers 2 and 3 we see exactly his mustache (2 different shields).
I think you did excellent research work Железный.
Many thanks for sharing your work with us.

I am however a bit confused by your last posts.

The indents on the (from the back) right upper hand tab are exactly the same on the FO Krim and the "FO" Kuban. This is a very distinctive mark which indeed link these two type of shields to FO.

But in your last post you also show that another type of Krim shield has also these typical marks.
What does this prove??

Kr
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Old 11-28-2017, 05:38 AM   #15
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Hello Pascal!
At the moment we have: the reference Ort's Krim, which has a characteristic feature on the plate and it is not alone + the track from the die-cut stamp on the mustache.

The same Kuban with similar traces.

And Krim from the message 12, which has all the same as the standards. Since the dimensions of the shields coincide, we can say with certainty that it is manufactured on a single cutting machine (All 3 - Ort's Krim, Kuban and Crimea from message 12)

The conclusions can be different:

1. All these boards were manufactured on the same machine at Orta.

2. Orth sold some machines to someone and made them different, so there is no stigma, but they are all original for the period ww2.

I am inclined to the first embodiment, probably, it is many shocking and with me not agree.
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