LW Wraparounds Pz & AG

[djpool]

Hi Luca,

You stated this wrap along with another HG wrap were found in Italy. While HG Div. was certainly engaged in Sicily and Italy, Pz Korp HG was formed and fought in Russia. The tailor label does appear to read Pz Korp.

The Hermann Göring was thrown back into the line in mid May 1944 to counter the allied offensive toward Rome. Rome fell on 4 June, 1944. On 15 July the division was ordered out of the line to prepare for transport to the Eastern Front.


During this period, several veteran cadres were drawn from the division for the formation of Fallschirm-Panzergrenadier-Division 2. Hermann Göring, the division's sister formation currently being formed in Radom. Also, the majority of the division's supply units were removed, as were many of its staff officers. These units were to go towards the creation of Fallschirm-Panzerkorps Hermann Göring, under which the two Hermann Göring divisions were to operate..


The division arrived at the Vistula front in late-July, 1944 and would be continually engaged.



The Fallschirm-Panzerkorps Hermann Göring was activated in early October 1944, and the Hermann Göring Panzer Division, along with its sister Panzer grenadier division, was transferred to the command of the corps. The Panzerkorps was then transferred to the East Prussia–Kurland region.

Originally Posted by Luca Ongaro

always looking for informations
? panzer korps HG
Luca

[Leroy]

It would appear now that the "dot" I observed, based on these new photos, is part of the upper stamp set, just now being seen. A question before everyone jumps on the sewn label: Are the "dots" seen at the top of the markings in other wraps also part of the bottom of another stamp set?

[derka]

Originally Posted by Peter v L

Yes, as I said in the post to Jim, I will look at the files we have, as I recall we have sold a couple 344 marked ones before. I will look through the files and hopefully they are not to old photos so they have some quality.

Peter

Did you find pics of those 344 marked wraps you sold in your files ?
derka

[Leroy]

Without re-posting all the photos again, the following wraps have a "dot", or multiple"dots", above the top of the size markings:

Gene's
PvL's
Bryon's
Luca's (the 'dot" is actualy part of a 2nd set of markings above)
Wade's
"hkodgoalie"'s

Only the wrap markings posted by Mike Davis (from the wrap photographed by him in Europe in 2009) and the markings on RichardP's wrap (posted by 'Zauberflöte') do not appear to have the "dots".

Why are these "dots" present (or not)?

[Glenn McInnes]

Originally Posted by Leroy

Without re-posting all the photos again, the following wraps have a "dot", or multiple"dots", above the top of the size markings:

Gene's
PvL's
Bryon's
Luca's (the 'dot" is actualy part of a 2nd set of markings above)
Wade's
"hkodgoalie"'s

Only the wrap markings posted by Mike Davis (from the wrap photographed by him in Europe in 2009) and the markings on RichardP's wrap (posted by 'Zauberflöte') do not appear to have the "dots".

Why are these "dots" present (or not)?

They are the outside edges of the stamp/stamps..IMO.









Glenn

[RobertE]

Here's a clean shot of the same maker without the dots in an Army wrapper.

s/f Robert

[Leroy]

I suppose this is an indication that the "stamper" had good days and bad days...

[John Hodgin]

Originally Posted by Leroy

Why are these "dots" present (or not)?

IMMHO, much ado about nothing. Probably part of the outer edge of the stamp where ink from the stamp's edge was transferred to the fabric by excessive or slight angled pressure.

[Glenn McInnes]

Originally Posted by Leroy

I suppose this is an indication that the "stamper" had good days and bad days...

Just the angle of the stamp when it was applied and the amount of pressure applied when stamped (and amount of ink on the stamp)







Glenn

[Peter v L]

Originally Posted by Glenn McInnes

Just the angle of the stamp when it was applied and the amount of pressure applied when stamped (and amount of ink on the stamp)







Glenn

Agreed, they probably stamped several ones with the amount of ink on the stamp, so the first have more excess from edges and the last may have faint spots. As well as angle etc etc. means nothing really

Peter v L

[Leroy]

So the "dots" (and this makes perfect sense) mean nothing and are just "happenstance" in the stamping of markings, dependent on ink "loading" and pressure. No big deal.

Now we have 3 wraps (the one photographed by Mike Davis "in Europe" in 2009 (and which I assume Mike must have thought was real), RichardP's (which Zauberflöte has indicated surfaced in Stuttgart around 5 years ago), and Luca's (which he indicated had been in an older collection in Italy for years) with markings which appear to be identical to each other. So identical, in fact, that it is suggested that at least some of them are copies.

IF there are copies here, is it conceivable that they came from the one Mike photographed in 2009 (but not shown here until 2011) or is that one also a copy? In any case, there are 3 wraps with the same markings. Luca's wrap was in his hands in 2010 (he showed it here for the first time then - but did not reveal the markings so as not to assist fakers). RichardP's, according to a previous owner, is traceable back to Stuttgart 5 years ago (2007). "Mike's" goes back to 2009.

The point being...if there was "monkey business" with HG wraps, the fakers didn't get their information from anything on this Forum. Which, in turn, tells me that "they" had access to what they needed from other sources. The questions are: how long have they had it and what else have they done with it?

[Zauberflöte]

Originally Posted by Leroy

So the "dots" (and this makes perfect sense) mean nothing and are just "happenstance" in the stamping of markings, dependent on ink "loading" and pressure. No big deal.

Now we have 3 wraps (the one photographed by Mike Davis "in Europe" in 2009 (and which I assume Mike must have thought was real), RichardP's (which Zauberflöte has indicated surfaced in Stuttgart around 5 years ago), and Luca's (which he indicated had been in an older collection in Italy for years) with markings which appear to be identical to each other. So identical, in fact, that it is suggested that at least some of them are copies.

IF there are copies here, is it conceivable that they came from the one Mike photographed in 2009 (but not shown here until 2011) or is that one also a copy? In any case, there are 3 wraps with the same markings. Luca's wrap was in his hands in 2010 (he showed it here for the first time then - but did not reveal the markings so as not to assist fakers). RichardP's, according to a previous owner, is traceable back to Stuttgart 5 years ago (2007). "Mike's" goes back to 2009.

The point being...if there was "monkey business" with HG wraps, the fakers didn't get their information from anything on this Forum. Which, in turn, tells me that "they" had access to what they needed from other sources. The questions are: how long have they had it and what else have they done with it?

Yep, this pretty much sums it all up.

F.

[FS154]

I can only ad that in the 1990s a Leutnant from Fsch.Pz.Rgt HG told me that they received all panzer wrappers from Heer suppliers without any insignia.

I really don´t think it make sence that the Luftwaffe produced their own wrappers, that are identical to the Heer wrappers.