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Old 08-27-2017, 10:47 PM   #16
all1knew
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Old 08-28-2017, 12:36 AM   #17
ww1czechlegion
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Hi William,

Is this the one that came out of the auction in Ohio recently?

The First and foremost red flag with this busby is that this banner (Peninsula - Sicilien - Waterloo - Mars la Tour) is for the 17th Husaren Regiment of Braunschweig, and does not go with this type of skull on a Prussian busby that is supposed to be for either the 1.Lieb Husaren or 2.Lieb Husaren Regiment. This type of skull used the "Mit Gott Fur Konig Und Vaterland" silver color banner.

The wicker body interior looks like it might be an o.k. (legitimate) frame for an Imperial German Busby. Too bad the markings seem to be illegible.

That being said, it's hard to say if the fur has or has not been replaced on the exterior of the wicker frame at some point of time over the years.

It's unfortunate that someone took the chinscales off and placed the National Kokarde in the wrong position on top of the chinscales, between the rosette and the chinscale on the wearer's right side of the busby. I noticed that in the 1-auction preview photo when it was sitting on the stairs in the collector's home. It is something that is easily rectified if you want to do so.

From my limited knowledge of the 3-types of these skulls, the details look weak on the example mounted on this busby (The teeth, and the skull lines, etc.)

I also notice that there is no covering on the backside of the chinstrap leather to which the chinscale segments are stapled to. Not sure what is up with that, as to why it is that way. Restored chinscales? Not sure, but the backside should of the chinscale sides should not look like this.

Is the red kolpak removeable? (There might be a spring wire ring inside the red felt bag that holds it on to the inner recessed top of the busby).

My first best guess on your busby is that it is some sort of theatrical headgear, or at the worst, something put together that was meant to deceive a collector. Hopefully some others will chime in on this item.

Best Regards,

Alan

Last edited by ww1czechlegion; 08-28-2017 at 01:03 AM. Reason: added information.
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Old 08-28-2017, 02:07 AM   #18
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Banner and skull do not match. Banner and Feldzeichen do not match.

Skull is not a one looker and lower jaw missing - I am leaning towards replica.

The rest looks ok.

IMO it could well be a pimped up busby of a less sought after Hussar Regiment (probably HR 3, 11, 13 or 14, possibly 5, 6 or 10 - depending on the exact shade of red) made to look like a Brunswick HR 17 or Leib Hussar Regiment 1 - if so all that needs to be done is replace the banner with the correct and more common one MIT GOTT FUER KOENIG UND VATERLAND (which should be situated lower on the busby than the current one) and remove the skull.

Busby is of the non-officer type but has an officer type Feldzeichen this combination was worn by the Fahnrich.
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Last edited by kaiserwilhelm2; 08-28-2017 at 03:10 AM.
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Old 08-28-2017, 12:08 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ww1czechlegion View Post

Is this the one that came out of the auction in Ohio recently?
yes, I attended the auction in person and while there was a lot of good the collector did have some questionable stuff that I stayed away from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ww1czechlegion View Post
Is the red kolpak removeable? (There might be a spring wire ring inside the red felt bag that holds it on to the inner recessed top of the busby).
I will take a look at it a bit later but I thought it looked hand sewn in places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiserwilhelm2 View Post

The rest looks ok.

IMO it could well be a pimped up busby of a less sought after Hussar Regiment (probably HR 3, 11, 13 or 14, possibly 5, 6 or 10 - depending on the exact shade of red) made to look like a Brunswick HR 17 or Leib Hussar Regiment 1 - if so all that needs to be done is replace the banner with the correct and more common one MIT GOTT FUER KOENIG UND VATERLAND (which should be situated lower on the busby than the current one) and remove the skull.
that is very possible as a few of his other items may have told that story as well.

Thank you to both of you for the help and opinions; I really appreciate you looking at this one for me.

William Kramer
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Old 08-31-2017, 01:46 AM   #20
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It's very interesting to read the eBay description for this busby, currently being offered on that venue, and how the seller's description wanders away from what has been pointed out here.

I will clarify what my opinion of William's busby is:

As forum member kaiserwilhelm2 pointed out, the busby is most likely a "humped up" line regiment busby that would have had an original "Got Mitt Uns" banner on it. I personally doubt that it ever had an original skull on the busby. From what I can see from William's photos, the skull presently on the busby is a poor quality replica. The 17th regiment banner is also a replica.

I agree with kaiserwilhelm2, my opinion being that this busby was never a Lieb Hussar Regiment busby, nor was it ever a Brunswick 17th Hussar busby. It was simply a much more common line regiment busby for HR 3, 11, 13 or 14, possibly 5, 6 or 10 - depending on the exact shade of red.

Someone in the past took a much more common line regiment busby, and "pimped it up" by adding a Fake Lieb Hussar Skull, and a Fake Banner for the 17th Hussar Regiment.

Someone also played around with the busby and messed with the chinscales. They are missing the backing which is clearly seen in William's excellent photos he's provided. The National Kokarde has also been incorrectly positioned between the rosette and the chinscales, something like how the repro India made pickelhaubes are assembled with the kokardes being incorrectly placed with the chinscales behind the kokarde, instead of the kokarde being located behind the chinscales as it was meant to be.

William's present eBay auction description shows that he's believing that the busby simply has the wrong banner on it. In my humble opinion, that's simply just wrong, and not following what has been said here about his busby.

I hope this clarifies things.

Best Regards,

Alan

Last edited by ww1czechlegion; 08-31-2017 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 08-31-2017, 08:51 AM   #21
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Hello again,

Well I am not trying to screw anybody with this if it is entirely wrong and I stated the insignia was incorrect to the piece. I went ahead and pulled the listing down and will relist it tonight and state that this may have started life as something else if you're sure that's what happened.

I have another skull and banner here. Is it possible these were the correct ones? The guy had them mounted in a display case. I wonder if he swapped them and put the incorrect ones on?

William Kramer
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Old 08-31-2017, 08:55 AM   #22
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is this one correct?
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Old 08-31-2017, 09:04 AM   #23
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Hello again,

One other question. Were chin scales always leather backed? If the piece is correct for the rank of Fahnrich were the chin scales added from something else to accommodate this rank?

William Kramer
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Old 08-31-2017, 09:48 AM   #24
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The bandeau is for HR 15 and not correct on a busby with a red kolpak (goes with a yellow kolpak).

The skull IMO is again a replica.

Chin scales were always leather backed as these were actually worn and if it were just metal your skin would be bloody after a ride on horse back. If these chin scales are original than the leather bits would have been removed - this should be visible. A Fahnrich could IMO have officer chin scales - however this is a bit of a grey area: what exactly is or is not appropriate (?) for a Fahnrich seeing he is an aspirant officer.
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Last edited by kaiserwilhelm2; 08-31-2017 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 08-31-2017, 09:51 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiserwilhelm2 View Post

Chin scales were always leather backed as these were actually worn and if it is just metal your skin would be bloody after a ride on horse back.
good point. So just to clarify, do you believe the other skull that I posted is fake too or just the one on the busby?

William Kramer
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Old 08-31-2017, 10:04 AM   #26
cobra-2001
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Hi William this is a original skull . They are maker marked on the back.Cliff
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Old 08-31-2017, 10:05 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by all1knew View Post
good point. So just to clarify, do you believe the other skull that I posted is fake too or just the one on the busby?

William Kramer
IMO both are replicas.
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Old 08-31-2017, 10:06 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobra-2001 View Post
Hi William this is a original skull . They are maker marked on the back.Cliff
thank you for showing me that!!

William Kramer
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