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John Burnett Helmet Forum One of the most distinguishing characteristics of the German fighting force was their Stahlhelm.

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Old 06-01-2019, 01:32 AM   #61
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It doesn't take 30 seconds to demolish your poorly researched fantasy, but for you its a life time of making demonstrably false claims to try and sex up the items you wish to sell.

Strange that you try and give the impression that anyone who posts a lot on here is a loser because you are now using your well worn tactic of trying to be last man standing, continually posting one poorly thought out piece of nonsense after another in an attempt to have the last word.

Lets examine the logic of your argument before moving onto some specifics relating to the swastika itself and your claims for it.

1) Germans used the metric system in WW2
2) Swastika is metric

conclusion: Helmet was painted by the Germans in WW2.

This sort of argument is such a starter level logical fallacy that its difficult to express how misguided you would have to be to seriously propose it as proof that this helmet was painted by the Germans in WW2.

If you are not willing to do any research or to learn anything about the things you want to sell, you could at least learn how to structure a valid argument.

But its not only your inability to see the flaws in the logic of your arguments that is a problem. The one "fact" that you claim proves your case is demonstrably false.

You keep claiming its a stencil.

Have you ever tried to use a stencil on a three dimensional surface? It doesn't work so well as say masking tape. Nor is there any evidence of any over spray or any indication of where capillary action takes the paint underneath the edges of the stencil.

There is a reason for this, its because ........

No stencil was used, the swastika was painted free hand.

There are some clear guide marks around the swastika. See the annotated picture for further pointers.

You even claim the mythical stencil was for use on other pieces of equipment, ok then show us. Go on, show us. For once in your career on here, actually do some research and provide some solid evidence for your claims instead of just spiralling off into ever greater realms of made up guff every time you are challenged to prove what you say.

Now you keep claiming that the swastika is geometrical and asking if we know what that means, errr yes I know what it means and it doesn't mean what you think it means,

geometric[ jee-uh-me-trik ]
adjective Also ge·o·met·ri·cal.
of or relating to geometry or to the principles of geometry.
resembling or employing the simple rectilinear or curvilinear lines or figures used in geometry.
of or relating to painting, sculpture, or ornamentation of predominantly geometric characteristics.
(often initial capital letter) Fine Arts.
pertaining to or designating a style of vase painting developed in Greece between the 10th and 8th centuries b.c., characterized chiefly by rectilinear or curvilinear shapes in abstract and human figuration, often arranged in tiers or panels around the vase.
designating a style of Greek sculpture of approximately the same period, exemplified chiefly in small figurines or reliefs having a schematic and generalized treatment of the human form.
a geometric pattern, design, etc.:
an ornate and handsome geometric.

Nowhere in any definition of the word geometric is there anything that backs up your argument that this is period done by a German soldier for use in service, (perhaps you are now claiming this is an ancient greek vase. It wouldn't surprise me if you did) Mainly because the word geometrical does not mean what you seem to think it means. Just to help you out, the swastika is not symmetrical either as I have shown.

Heres another quote for you

QUOTATION: “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.”

Thats you that is, you are Humpty Dumpty.

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Last edited by Dom; 06-01-2019 at 02:53 AM.
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Old 06-01-2019, 02:25 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by bigschuss View Post
Man, this thread is starting to sound a lot like this one....


And this one, in which the "dispatch rider" theory also made an appearance.


So in the first thread the poster "forgets" to mention that they added a liner to a helmet until forced to admit it and we are meant to take this guy seriously? All the same crappy arguments put forward in that first thread that we see here.

As Clestuff says "I like it and can think what I want about it" yes you can but that does not make it true and in ignoring what the many collectors with more experience than me are telling you, you are stupidly refusing an extremely fine and free education on the subject.

Ive just read the second thread, all the same delusional arguments, as we see here. The helmet could only have been painted by the Germans because such a good job was done and only the Germans could have done such a good job. Nonsense. The OP has learnt nothing in all the years since he started the other two threads.

Now what really hurts me here is not the attempt to upsell an item, though that is wrong because for me it is all ready a very nice piece and a great find, its the sloppy logic behind the arguments.

I went mudlarking on the river Thames yesterday with an expert. I could of just continually argued the toss with him about everything he said but instead I listened to his theories on what to look for and found, well nothing of any great historical importance but some interesting bits and pieces. All because I shut my mouth, listened and learned from someone with extensive experience in the subject.

In the tub of coins is one that is cut in half. I can make up all sorts of fantasy stuff about it being cut in half by the Germans because only the Germans could cut a coin in half so accurately or I can listen to what the expert told me, which is that in the 50s the French sent a load of coins to London to be smelted as they were of an old design. The dockers realised they were still legal currency and started to "drop" cases over the side of the ship into the river which they would collect at low tide. After they noticed groups of British tourists paying their bills in 100 franc coins the French authorities realised what was happening and started to cut the coins in half before shipping them. Nothing I could have made up was as interesting as being told the real story behind that coin. Its amazing what you can learn if you stop talking and just listen sometimes.
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Last edited by Dom; 06-01-2019 at 03:26 AM.
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Old 06-01-2019, 04:21 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by clestuff View Post
Thank you for taking the time to put together such a detailed argument. You must have a lot of time on your hands [wish I did]. But, if you read my comments I think you will see I said "I think it may be period...because". I never said anything was "proof" of anything. Just offering evidence to provoke thought is not a claim of proof. If you are going to present a counter-argument, at least read what I said. And, I really dont think there are zero examples of original helmets with hand painted swastikas on them.

How's this one for you? I'm sure it will inspire another imaginative response from you. It looks to me like the camo was painted around the swastika!

Take care any happy collecting!
You claim you are offering evidence but not trying to prove anything? I refer you back to my quote about Humpty Dumpty. You can't just make up what words mean to win an argument on the internet.

Its almost as if a really dim light bulb has gone off in the back of your head and you're just starting to realise it might all be more complicated than you thought so now you want to start back tracking on what you have previously been claiming.

As for you claim that the tan paint is painted around the swastika, how about this for a thought process.....

Clestuff thinks to himself..................

"Everyone agrees that the camo paint is original, so how do I use that to prove the swastika is original? I know, if the swastika was on the helmet before the camo paint, then the swastika is original !! Bingo !! So the camo paint must have been painted around the swastika!!"

Even from the pictures you have provided it is clear the tan paint and indeed some scratches to the tan paint, run under the white paint. Yet again you decide on the outcome you want and try and shape the evidence around your desired outcome.

Walter B had all ready shown the correct sequence of application of paint. Your claims are yet again fantastical nonsense, not thought provoking.

Instead of just thinking that there are period examples (from the period of this helmets service use, not Freikorp) do some work and show us, Even then, WalterB has all ready shown that given the wear on the rest of the helmet and the lack of comparable wear on the swastika, that not only was the swastika painted on top of the camo but that the helmet saw little to no use after the swastika was added.

By claiming that what I have written comes from my imagination you are projecting your faults onto me in attempt to put our arguments on an equal basis, i.e. both me and you are imagining scenarios so all our scenarios are equally valid.

I don't think so.

None of what I have said comes from my imagination, there are established rules about what is and what is not evidence and what is and what is not a valid form of logical deduction, there is also a mass of literature about theories and what makes a theory valid, you've clearly read none of it.thumbsu p


Last edited by Dom; 06-01-2019 at 05:40 AM.
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Old 06-01-2019, 07:14 AM   #64
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If that expert mud larker was not there I would have sworn the Germans were responsible for the cut up French coins. Rob
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Old 06-01-2019, 07:39 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by ROBB View Post
If that expert mud larker was not there I would have sworn the Germans were responsible for the cut up French coins. Rob
Rob, in all likelihood, a German dispatch rider. No doubt about that.

Thank you Dom, you have the patience of Job. As a side note, the French cut coin story is really fascinating!
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Old 06-01-2019, 08:08 AM   #66
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I also found the cut coin story interesting and educational. Regarding the mysterious swastika I would also agree that it has been hand painted with a brush due to its depth and clear cut edges. As far as the metric argument runs, I use both metric and imperial units of measure in my profession and the difference in actual size at many standard sizes is quite minute, certainly too small to pick up on this painted symbol that is clearly not even of equal dimensions in all its proportions.
Now I might grab a cold beer and read the two links that Blair has added. WAF is better than any reality TV show! Bill
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