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Old 05-07-2018, 08:36 AM   #211
marisca lrommel
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In this photo, property of the user Aenobarbo can be seen two unused award certificate ..... on the left, the one corresponding to the period 1943-1943 where it reads:
DEN STERN DES DEUTSCHEN ADLERORDENS ZWEITER KLASSE MIT SCHWERTERN.

To the right award certificate from the previous period where it reads:
DEN STERN DES DEUTSCHEN ADLERORDENS MIT SCHWERTERN
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Old 05-07-2018, 11:35 AM   #212
Peter J.
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Jesus, I thought we discussed the document for the "1.Klasse" and fail to see the relervance in the two new docs presented. Those docs are the ones I previously mentioned, I merely forgot their exact wording. Both are most likely from the post-Dec.1943 period, the first correctly referring to a "2.Klasse" and titled "Der Führer des Grossdeutschen Reiches". Your enhencement of "Zweiter Klasse" in yellow and bold letters doesn't turn a "Zweite Stufe" into a "4.Klasse". Mind you, the early cases generally used digets to illustrate the class i.e. "1.Stufe", whereas the documents used the letters correct for the title i.e "Erste Stufe". The other document is IMO most probably not as you suggest for the previous period, as it is distingnguished "Deutsher Adlerordens" (implemented 1943). Interesting to note is the "Der Führer", but void of the remaining title seen on the previous document.

I don't know whether or not it's realistic to form some kind of consensus based on blank documents, but awarded documents would definately give serious food for thoughts. Given the differences presented on two documents from roughly the samee period of time and significance, perhaps the answer for these discrepancies are due to different producers of documents? The search goes on

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Old 05-08-2018, 12:03 AM   #213
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As we can see, the date of the previous document is 1942 and the ordinances were approved by Adolf Hitler on December 27, 1943 but it is assumed that, being a lot of the same person, the winner obtained a first class in 1942 and when the the new regulation was actually in force and therefore a first class of 1943 was given to it, even though the document is of the previous type ... another assumption is that the lot is a montage composed of a first class of 1943 and a document referring to another Order obtained previously or from another person ... this is also possible given the assemblies that we see daily on sets of the Order of the German Eagle for sale.

I put the documents of the Order with Star only by the data that they contribute on how it should be an Award certificate of this period
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Old 05-08-2018, 09:53 AM   #214
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Jesus, I've read your response and think I understand how you reason, but quite frankly it's difficult to know for sure, as you insist on not differentiate the classes in question by using "Stufe" and "Klasse". For the benefit of the other readers of this thread, can you please re-post your response with the appropriate distinctions. Furthermore, I assume your response is in reference to the Backlund group, as you specificly refer to 1942. Is this correct?

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Old 05-08-2018, 10:33 AM   #215
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Great Thread.
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Old 05-08-2018, 11:46 PM   #216
marisca lrommel
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I mean this set when I talk about 1942. As for Stufe or Klasse, you're right ... there are times that I forget this issue and I mix the terms
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Old 05-08-2018, 11:59 PM   #217
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I assumed that it was a correct set because this set belonged to the same person but possibly the seller mixed an award certificate of a 1St Stufe Neck Eagle Order with a 1St Klasse of 1943 to make the most interesting set and raise the market value with it.
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Old 05-09-2018, 02:05 PM   #218
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I hear you Jesus, assumption or lack of communication can be the mother of f**k-ups . This is a complex topic and keeping three balls in the air simultaneously doesn’t make it easier (decorations, cases and documents). I’ll however try my best to share my thoughts, hopefully in a comprehensive way.


The conflict we seem to contemplate is the interaction between the pre-43 and post-43 conferments of the DAO. In the best of worlds, all awardees would receive the set appropriate for the time of conferment. This was not always the case , hence this interaction can occur. Any award presented on paper pre-43 and eventually presented in hand post-43 would still be a pre-43 award. Even after the new regulations 1943, it wouldn’t be a massive problem, should a pre-43 set be presented. After all, the various classes except for the “1.Klasse” were identical and the actual markings were of little or no interest to the recepiant.


You’re right that groups are often “enhanced” in order to raise the value, hence it’s important to use logic for evaluation. I don’t know how the Backlund group was presented (1.Stufe or 1.Klasse), but it’s a put-together clear as rain. Mixing a document for an Erste Stufe with a 1.Klasse decoration is hardly raising the value IMHO. He was a regimental Colonel and received the DAO Erste Stufe 1942 (Commander 2nd class) and eventually received the Swedish Order of the Sword 1943 (Commander 2nd class). I don’t think it’s even remotely plausible he climbed two steps on the promotion ladder, in order to be eligible for the “1.Klasse”. I’m also very hesitant whether or not there were any bestowals of the DAO to Swedes after the beginning of 1943.


As you've probably noticed, the two blank documents give food thoughts. That elusive document for the 1.Klasse is still a no-show, perhaps it'll some day surface.


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Peter


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Old 05-09-2018, 11:54 PM   #219
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To me, apart from what you say there is another thing that has me intrigued ..... rather doubts about the medals ...

1-Why is there no photograph showing the recipient of this decoration with a medal of the Order of the German Eagle on the uniform?

2-The bronze medal of the German Eagle (regulations of 1943), was delivered without anything? .... There was no award certificate, a provisional written document or anything to accompany this medal?

I have only found these photographs of a ceremony of imposition of the medal of the Order of the German Eagle, I believe that an Italian soldier but the medal is not clearly seen. As you can see, in the photograph this soldier appears, with the medal on his uniform already on and a document in his hand that is supposed to be the concession document .... maybe it was a silver medal
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File Type: jpg recibiendo 5.jpg (38.9 KB, 33 views)

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Old 05-10-2018, 12:03 PM   #220
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Jesus, you're not the only one with doubts. I still have a long way to go with my research, but you're right, there are several strange aspects. In your book you account for only 15 recepients of the Medal, but I'm familiar with how difficult it is to find comprehensive documentation. For example, I've found 77 Swedish awardees in public records and although one probably has to quadruple that number in order to reach the correct figures, there is no recepient of the Medal amongst those 77. However that doesn't necessarily mean there weren't any, it's just tricky to find the info, as the decorations of the DAO are presented in conjunction with other decorations i.g. Swedish Order of the Sword. Rest assured, the search goes on

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Old 05-16-2018, 11:41 AM   #221
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A minor correction on my part. I suggested the wording "Der Führer" was implemented around late 1943, but I recently encountered a document from Oct. 1942 with said feature. In Jesus's 1st book on this topic, there is also an illustration of Mannerheim's document for the Goldenes Grosskreuz from June 1942 (gotta pay more attention to what I read)

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Old 05-17-2018, 10:13 AM   #222
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"STUFE" and "DER FÜHRER"
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:16 AM   #223
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This is published to help Peter who is studying the award certificates for eras. It strikes me that in 1944 the word "DRITTER STUFE", instead of "FÜNFTE KLASSE" is still used and the new name "DER FÜHRER" appears.

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Old 05-17-2018, 10:21 AM   #224
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Another Zweiter Stufe 1942 with words "DER FÜHRER"
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