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Maedicke Krim shield / A good forgery?
Old 03-25-2019, 11:32 AM   #1
Sveimhugi
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Default Maedicke Krim shield / A good forgery?

Hi guys

I am going to try to make this short. I have already posted this on Militariafundforum some time ago. A few members there (and from here actually also) asked my to post my findings here to.
So here we are..

I bought a Maedicke in good condition not so long ago.
Posted it here, with mixed comments/views.
Heres the thread:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=988145

I did not comment more on it but did my homework.

Here it is again, from pictures and scans it look very good, and no real way to say its bad.

***PIC 1 & 2***

But its is a cast. With closer inspection you can see it not struck but cast.
Now I can not proof that all Maedicke are cast, but this one certainly is without a doubt.
Its a good cast, but still a cast.

The pictures are with German text. I did not change that, but they are self explanatory I would think.

There is the cast Maedicke shown and for reference a good, random struck shield by an unknown maker.

I checked out all of my Krimshields, all were nice. clearly stuck, with shearing lines ect.. just the Maedicke (and one other actually) did show clear signs of casting.

Here you go, the pics.
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:38 AM   #2
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More pictures...
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Old 03-25-2019, 04:28 PM   #3
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Gentlemen
Some photos of my shield!
It’s difficult to see more of it
Chay
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Old 03-25-2019, 04:30 PM   #4
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Plate
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Old 03-25-2019, 04:44 PM   #5
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Edge
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Old 03-26-2019, 04:47 AM   #6
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Hi upbeek

Thanks for your reply.

Well, if you look at the side of the wing on yours, it has the same casting traces.
Like you already noticed.

I bet with a Loupe or better pictures the traces are in all of the "lower parts" (cant find a better word) of the shield, lettering, roads ect..
You can even see it on the "2" in, where you are capturing the side of the wing.
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Old 03-26-2019, 05:15 AM   #7
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I already wrote the opinion in this section of a forum that the shields Maedicke are a mystification from the ninetieth years. Neither to, nor after "a great find in Breslau" these shields were not known anywhere. Their images are not in documentary photos (though photos with the shields Krim much), in finds from the earth.
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Old 03-26-2019, 05:35 AM   #8
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Gentlemen
I have the answer !
I will reveal it later
Kind regards Chay
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Old 03-26-2019, 05:52 AM   #9
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I wonder what kind of book it is
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...2&postcount=27
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Old 03-26-2019, 06:08 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Железный View Post
What book?
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Old 03-26-2019, 08:07 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upbeek View Post
Gentlemen
I have the answer !
I will reveal it later
Kind regards Chay
Hi upbeek

I like the Gentlemen thing! =)

Yes I would be interest in your findings.

KR
Sindri
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Old 03-26-2019, 08:44 AM   #12
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Sindri,
Indeed one must be gentlemanly or be uncivilised!
I choose gentlemanly
Kind regards Chay
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Old 03-27-2019, 03:21 AM   #13
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Very interested thread and most impressive pictures Sindri.


First thing I noticed of this “fake cast” shield is that it is magnetic. You must ask yourself the question “why would fakers take the trouble of casting a shield from iron”? Also why go all the trouble of casting and then produce this shield in such a small numbers? The Maedicke shield in good condition is a very rare shield. I would think that casting this type of shield have cost more than the profit it can make. This make no sense at all to me.

I have several Maedicke shields in my collection, and also this type. I don’t have such a nice microscope which can make these impressive pictures but my microscope has a magnification of 600 times, so enough to spot the finest details. Yes, my shield has also markings on the side of the wings. Fact is however that cast shields should show the exact same marks on each shield. The marks on my shield are similar to yours but not exactly the same. Also on my shield I can see on the top of the left wing a sheared edge with some tool markings.

All the Maedicke shield in my collection have the same (allow a small tolerance) dimensions and weight. Also when comparing these shields with other (original) iron shields in my collection the Maedicke shields don’t stand out and have the approx. same dimensions and weight.
Not only should a cast been off with the dimensions also a cast iron shield should have been heavier. To get the same weight an original die stamped shield is as good as impossible.

I still believe the shield you posted is and original shield and most likely made by Maedicke. It is my opinion that the markings on the shield are due to the die.

Kr
Pascal
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Old 03-27-2019, 05:20 PM   #14
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Hi Pascal and thank you.

Well I dont know why they used a magnetic alloy, but why not, seems very smart. It can be allot of alloys, it could be Messing mixed with iron powder for example, makes it both strong and magnetic or or or, the possibilities could many I guess.

About the amount made or the cash involved I dont know either.
There is not just one type of forger, some are in the metal industry, some are not, some are collectors, some not, some are both, young, old, smart, dumb whatever. Who made the shield and how much they made, I have no idea.
I dont know how many Maedicke shields are around. But this can also be easily spun around and asked if its likely that the LDO would give out contracts, for such a mass produced award, in such low numbers as the Maedicke? Where is the financial benefit for the company, having to install presses, make master, shrink them.. ect ect for so few shields.

Well no, the opposite actually, struck items would be exactly the same, down to the finest detail.
Cast items however not, gas, cooling, unsufficient pressure ect ect.
*A little Side note*:
The other struck shields I examined where so well made that you could see the tool marks of the master engraver in the finished product in some cases, absolutely amazing quality!

Its a shame that you cant show pictures, but the markings, again can me so may things. Caused while prying the shield out of the mold, left from pliers when the edge was bent a little bit more, or less, ect ect.. can be so many things, I dont know.

But most of this above does not matter anyway IMO, and are just speculations that neither me or you have the answer to and will never resolve anything.
But the best thing is we dont need to, why would we? We have the finished product, the shield itself before us.

Well, but the Maedicke are not the same as other shields, other shields dont have casting traces on them and they are much thinner.
I agree, it would be very hard to cast such a thin shield like the struck ones, and at the same time very hard to strike a shield as thick as the Maedicke out of steel, imagine what that would do to the tools. ***See pic 1***

I am in no crusade to smash the Maedicke, I own one myself, I would benefit from it being original.
But I also have to put beside my habits and wants, and look at the item for what it is. The Microscop does not lie, it is what it is.

Would you buy a ASA, ISA or Narvik with these edges?

I have been getting some PMs and email, ppl dont seem to want to write directly in the thread, nevermind, I answer all together here.

I was told twice these in mails that these marks are from worn dyes.
But that is not possible, and worn dyes never get "sharper" or leave traces like on the Maedicke. I uploaded a pic I already had on a German forum, on the same subject.
There I also show that it is just not possible to dye strike these shapes, you cant strike a surface that is goes "underneath itself".
***See pic 2 and 3***

Like i said above, I dont know what alloy it is, if its slightly bigger or smaller, no idea. You can make a mold on your computer, np to make them any size you want, just sit back and watch a drillbit cut it out for you into what medium you choose. Before CPUs you could use Pantographs and so forth. If there is a will there is a way and a million of them.

But what I do know, and what matters is how the end product looks under the Microscope, and that aint pretty or like the other Dye struck shields I examined.

Could you explain where in the production process and why and by what you think these traces were made, while dye striking?
Not just be the edges but also in the roads and lettering.

All the best from Iceland
Sindri
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Old 03-28-2019, 05:26 AM   #15
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Sindri,
I am discussing this with a family member as i am descended from expert steel workers,
This metal type is known as pig metal it is an iron full of impurity, this is known as porosity,
I found a great video online which shows the diecast manufacturing process of die creation and the casting in England on toy cars .
More datum to follow,
It looks at the moment these Maedicke Krim were diecast

Here is one video I found not sure it’s this
https://youtu.be/d_Yjyy_Rp2A

There’s this
https://youtu.be/-DRbgYLhc4Y

Kind regards Chay
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