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Old 05-24-2016, 09:51 PM   #16
bolewts58
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This is the other spange to which I was referring.

It sold on eBay about 4 years ago and appears in Konstantin's book.
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Old 05-26-2016, 06:07 AM   #17
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Well Mike. You'll probably end up with it sooner or later.

Anyway, here's another rare one - a single spange to the Eiserne Division. These are the seller's pics as it hasn't arrived yet.

As the Eiserne Division Medal private purchase ribbon (unlike the issue ribbon) was very close to the EK ribbon (although with slightly narrower white stripes), I suspect the recipient may have just substituted an EK ribbon spange for the skull clasp.

I've seen another of these with a slightly larger skull on a plain black ribbon. I doubt there were any hard and fast regulations governing these.
Why do you think, it has a relationship to the Eiserne Division?
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Old 05-26-2016, 09:26 AM   #18
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Why do you think, it has a relationship to the Eiserne Division?
It has been known about for some time that the skull spange was worn and was very likely an unofficial, private purchase piece.

Here are the pages from Konstantin's book that discuss the official and private purchase ribbon and the spange including a spange in wear.

If you look closely at the private purchase ribbon, it's clear that something was attached to it at one time and it was likely a skull.

Although the skull on my ribbon is smaller, it's been mounted quite professionally and I believe it's consistent with and represents the same thing.
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Old 05-27-2016, 04:46 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by bolewts58 View Post
This is the other spange to which I was referring.

It sold on eBay about 4 years ago and appears in Konstantin's book.
There are so many things still out there, which we don't know. But this spange with the big skull (sold on ebay) and shown in the book is no original. It looks similar like the one in the period photo, but it is not a good one. They were made after the period photo was shown in a forum. I remember, a seller on a market had a box full of them and I had one in my hands. A skull added on a DDR spange.
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Old 05-27-2016, 06:50 AM   #20
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There are so many things still out there, which we don't know. But this spange with the big skull (sold on ebay) and shown in the book is no original. It looks similar like the one in the period photo, but it is not a good one. They were made after the period photo was shown in a forum. I remember, a seller on a market had a box full of them and I had one in my hands. A skull added on a DDR spange.
Thanks for the information. I didn't know that. Have you told Konstantin? I do wonder if there was a box of them, why only one ever showed up on eBay? You would think that they would at least show up periodically. But, I've only seen the one, which is also shown in the book.

I've heard about the skull spange since the 70s and have seen two different photos showing them in wear. I believe the one I got has potential as it came in a job lot of ribbons and medals and was completely ignored. Therefore, I don't think it was some sort of planted item meant to deceive and drive up the price. The first Iron Div. medal I owned in the 80s had a similar style small Danzig skull on the ribbon.

When I have it in hand, I'll post better pictures.

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Old 05-28-2016, 09:48 PM   #21
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Stefan

In examining this issue further, despite your story, with all due respect, I don't agree with you.
Firstly, the spange in Konstantin's book does not have a DDR ribbon, IMO. The ribbon appears to be the course cotton/wool weave consistent with other Freikorps awards, not nylon as used on DDR ribbon bars. The supporting spange itself is 1920s period.
Secondly, the skull has good detail, appears to be stamped and is plated in a finish consistent with the period.
Thirdly, if these were fakes, why has only one of this type appeared on the market in the last 6 years.
Lastly, Konstantin is recognized as one of the leading experts on Freikorps and as well had a lot of expert support in the writing of his book. My experience of him is that he is conservative and cautious when including items in his books. If there was any doubt about this spange, he would have at the very least expressed this when he included in the Iron Division Medal section. The fact that he didn't, leads me to continue to favour this spange's authenticity.

I'd be curious to know what Sergey (Destruction) thinks about it.
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Old 05-29-2016, 04:58 PM   #22
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Hi Brian,
I'm with you here, basically, as I also have not seen any other spange of this kind on sale , and the picture shown is a serious argument. Also, I have a reverse picture of this ribbon and it does not look like DDR IMO...
On the other hand there might be a small possibility of mistake as the item in question does not belong to official decorations and was not studied well enough.
So Stefan , if you have any facts/evidence of it being a fake, please shoot. I know you're an expert in sculls, does the one from this spange look suspicious to you?
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Old 05-29-2016, 10:28 PM   #23
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I agree it needs to be studied more and it will likely remain somewhat speculative until more photo evidence and perhaps some contemporary written reference comes to light.
I have seen several Iron Division medals over the years with skulls of various types and sizes attached to the ribbon. So, it's not too much of a leap to think that smaller skulls were unofficially attached to ribon bars.


Here's the reverse of the spange in Konstantin's book which I think clearly shows it's not a DDR ribbon. The coarse weave is consistent with the type seen on various Freikorps decorations.
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Old 05-30-2016, 06:00 AM   #24
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I think the faker made a really good job. Everybody thinks it is original. I already told it, I talked with a seller of those items in past. When I had it in my hands, I said to him: It is no original, isn't it? He smiled and he confirmed that it is no original. He told me made with different materials from different times, DDR parts for example. There were one or two in auctions later. They were sold for only a few Euro. I think that was the reason why he stopped the production.
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Old 05-30-2016, 06:37 AM   #25
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Quote:
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I think the faker made a really good job. Everybody thinks it is original. I already told it, I talked with a seller of those items in past. When I had it in my hands, I said to him: It is no original, isn't it? He smiled and he confirmed that it is no original. He told me made with different materials from different times, DDR parts for example. There were one or two in auctions later. They were sold for only a few Euro. I think that was the reason why he stopped the production.
However, for what it's worth, the one in Konstantin's book sold for over 100 EUR, I think 5 or 6 years ago.

So, if we accept your story that still leaves mine which is different. I should have it in a couple of weeks and I will post images of it for your thoughts.
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Old 05-30-2016, 07:40 AM   #26
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However, for what it's worth, the one in Konstantin's book sold for over 100 EUR, I think 5 or 6 years ago.

So, if we accept your story that still leaves mine which is different. I should have it in a couple of weeks and I will post images of it for your thoughts.
I remember, one was sold for under 50 Euro.
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Old 05-30-2016, 09:28 PM   #27
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To go with the von Loewenfeld pin in post #8.
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Old 05-30-2016, 09:29 PM   #28
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Maker mark
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Old 05-31-2016, 01:25 AM   #29
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To go with the von Loewenfeld pin in post #8.
These are heavily faked and the maker mark alone is not an indication of authenticity as all the fakes have this mark.

However, looking at the 7 details that are usually wrong on the obverse and reverse of the fakes, this one has all the traits of an authentic cross.
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Old 05-31-2016, 10:31 PM   #30
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Here's a Freikorps bar with the Lowenfeld Cross II.
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