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Bundesrepublik Deutschland, 1949-Present From West Germany through to the modern reunified German Republic.

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Old 08-16-2009, 05:39 AM   #16
sgtmonroe
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Years ago [its hard to believe that I have been posting on forums since 1998] the "Gunboards" forums were miles away from the crud that is on them now. There was a gentleman from Germany that posted volumes about 1950s Polizei equipment...he had numerous Reibert-type manuals that he would scan and post that explained alot of the unexplained. If I recall correctly he was Polizei [Berlin I believe] during the 60s and 70s and always a great help to the collectors.

One of the questions that popped up was about the D-rings on the jackets...he responded with a picture from a BGS Reibert-type manual that showed how to attach the field gear on the jacket...but for the life of me I can't remember how it was supposed to be done "correctly" [by the book so to say]...of course years have passed and the "Gunboards" forums have changed hands [I think they crashed in 2001-02] and all the old posts from 98-99 are long gone.

I have tried to track the gentleman down but have had no luck. He was an elderly gentleman to begin with...so 10 years later he, sadly, might not be around anymore.
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Old 08-16-2009, 04:22 PM   #17
Gordon Craig
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sgtmonroe,

I am another exgunboards user and lamented their demise. I don't remember seeing much posted there on the BW but then I spent all of my time there on the DDR Forum. At one time, the best DDR uniform Forum on the net. Be great if you could find the BGS posts you mentioned.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 08-16-2009, 08:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas J. Cullinane Jr. View Post
I'm not absolutely sure what magazines were accomodated by the ammo pouch, I'll have to research the magazine dimensions of the MP1 (Beretta 38/49), DUX 53, and MP5.
I have set of these pouches. The MP mag pouches are for MP1 in 1950s, and later MPL and MPK (of Walther manufacture) in 1960s-70s. Pattern almost unchanged 1950s-early 70s. MP5 introduced in 1970s, first had straight magazines. Think GSG9 was first BGS unit to receive them if I remember correct.

The loops are for mess kit and canteen without breadbag but rather clumsy. I tried it on and it is too heavy at bottom. Excessive engineering is a German trait...

regards
Klaus
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Old 08-17-2009, 01:26 AM   #19
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Here is one I found that appears to have come from a book. Not mine just figured someone could use it:

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Old 08-18-2009, 06:23 AM   #20
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The illustration in the last post comes from the "magazin" Gelboliv published by a Mr Drost ... although a bit chaotic one of the better publication on the early BW...

To some of the questions... The M1 ammo-pouches from Sinnsheim are first seen in this thread by me... afaik the M1 mags should have been carried in the puches of the "Splittertarnjacke", hold in place by the inserted loops...

The belt with the open bodied clasp may have been something like a big size Truppenversuch as it is one of the very rare items which is only displayed on very few pictures ... maybe it was to weak so the full bodied one was invented. In over 10 years I only saw one on Ebay!

In general I can say that even here in germany there are only very few people intensively researching early BW, BGS or the other federal organisations... many things seem to be undocumented - maybe you could find information in archives, but its not easy to find as it is burried unter loads of bureaucraticscrap....
Jens
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:28 PM   #21
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sgtmunroe and Jens - Thanks for the additional information. Close-up color pictures of early gear is always welcome. References (especially in English) for this collecting field are few and far between.

Hopefully, we can work together to beat the bureaucrats and bring to light more information on this relatively unknown era.

Although the World War Two Knight's Cross is very rare, if I had the money I could easily find at least a half dozen reputable dealers with examples for sale. But where could I buy the equally rare Bundeswehr Kampfenzug fuer Luftlandetruppen? To begin with, would I even know what an authentic example looks like? The illustration provided by sgtmunroe is only the second color picture I've seen. The first was in Daniel Peterson's Wehrmacht Camoflauge Uniforms.

A couple of month's ago David Fettes posted pictures of an early Bundeswehr Parachutist Helmet on the forum. It was colored blue. The only other pictures of this type of helmet that I've seen were in black and white. Here we have pictures of examples that are "oliv". Very confusing indeed......

With your help we can set the record straight and provide a standard reference for collectors, scholars, and model makers everywhere to turn to.

I have to get off the soap box now, the Frau is calling me for dinner......

All the best - TJ

P.S. - I think Gordon has an early Bundeswehr parachutist helmet too, but I forget what color it was......
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:30 AM   #22
Gordon Craig
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TJ,

You'll find pictures of my BW Falli hemets in my thread on West German Helmets. I have two. One is blue with a smoorth surface and one is olive brown with a rough surface. In the picture from the magazine it looks as though he showed an olive brown one with a smooth surface as well. The BGS used an olive brown coloured falli type helmet I believe.

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 08-19-2009, 04:30 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas J. Cullinane Jr. View Post
Hopefully, we can work together to beat the bureaucrats and bring to light more information on this relatively unknown era.
There are thoughts to create something like a "collectors guide to early Bundeswehr" ... but at the time it isn`t much more as a faint idea as you first have to bring together some hard - core collectors, maybe the BW itself (most propably the WTS in Koblenz) a good industrial photographer and a publisher to do so... only depending on one collection you`l have to leave out too much stuff as most collectors I know may have only some of the special items ... and you have to decide the kind of stuff as a book covering all BW stuff would extend to some 100 (1.000 ?) pages ... for example there are at least 4 different Types of G3 ammo pouches identyfied before 1970 which must be described 7 pictured....

And BW is the easiest part... BGS is a bit harder, but the most unknown field are organisations like ZB ...

Regards,

Jens
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:45 AM   #24
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Jens,

Good idea but it would probably take more than one book to do it and would sale break even? Just covering the hast properly would be a big task. You said earlier that there are only a "few" hard core German collectors and hopefully they would form part of the information base. Not out of the question though. It would just take some planning and dedication. It is happening around the collector community. A friend of mine in Washington state is about to publish a book on uniforms and badges of the Hungarian Peoples Republic (HUPR) 1948-1957. I am working on a book for civilian uniforms and badges for the HUPR 1948-1989. There is a chap on the GMIC Forum writing a book on Yugoslav badges and medals from the communist period. There are other books being written out there as well. The question is, how many will be published?

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:40 AM   #25
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Yes, Gordon, the economic base for such a big projekt is another problem beside the material itself and the question of focusing on a special periode or branche. But beside the relatively small number of "old" collectors there is an increasing number of new people arround, which may be interested in such a book. Maybe a multilingual book like the photo-art-books of the Taschen Verlag, wich allways contain the whole text in german, english and french, would be a good deal...

Lets see what future brings

Regards,
Jens
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:53 AM   #26
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A good place for non authers to publish a book like the ones you want to is through shire publishing in the UK.
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:56 PM   #27
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Jens,

Some good suggestions. A multi-author book with some knowledgable collectors focusing on their area of expertise would probably be successful. The two German language books that I use for reference purposes, of necessity, are limited in scope although Kunstwadl has done a very credible job in covering almost all aspects of BW collectables. As you say, there are new BRD/BW collectors taking to the hobby and a book in the languages you suggested might spur more interest.

Phil,

Thanks for the suggestion of a book publisher. Most books of this type are self published which gives them a very limited run and high overhead for the authors. Have you had any personal experience with this publisher?

Regards,

Gordon
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:36 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Craig View Post
TJ,

You'll find pictures of my BW Falli hemets in my thread on West German Helmets. I have two. One is blue with a smoorth surface and one is olive brown with a rough surface. In the picture from the magazine it looks as though he showed an olive brown one with a smooth surface as well. The BGS used an olive brown coloured falli type helmet I believe.

Regards,

Gordon
Thanks Gordon, I knew I had seen some of your examples before. Matching the color illustrations with the detailed type information and black and white illustrations in Ludwig Baer's book would be a worthwhile project; any takers out there?

In addition to the olive brown BGS types you mention, I've also seen them in BGS forest green. The appear on Manion's every now and then, usually averaging $250 - $350 USD. The one pictured below was worn by a GSG 9 trooper undergoing mountain training (source: GSG 9 by Froese and Scholzen).

All the best - T.J.
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File Type: jpg GSG9 steel helmet.jpg (79.9 KB, 223 views)
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:12 PM   #29
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Jens and Gordon - I once entertained the idea of writing a book on the post-war German Army (armies actually with the NVA) and still have about 100 pages of text on my hardrive.

I had lived in Germany for six years, I had visited all the major museums and I had amassed a decent reference library. This was all before I had discovered the existence of web forums.

When I finally did accidently stumble across the WAF a couple of years ago, I was stunned at how much of my carefully researched manuscript was inaccurate and in some cases just plain wrong! If it ever went to print, I would have been the laughingstock of Germany!

Just about everyday I learn something new and find out over and over how much I DON'T know about the Bundeswehr. The biggest obstacle I see in publishing a book on the early Bundeswehr is there is just so much basic information that is still missing. It's out there, but putting it all together would be an immense challenge.

That being said, I think it is very much a worthwhile undertaking. It would definetely be a project motivated by love of the hobby and not profit. I think you two have outlined the essential steps quite well in the earlier posts.

Jens, based on your pictures of the ZB mask, I think you'd qualify quite nicely as the "industrial photographer".

If marketed properly, I think there would be a chance for some good sales. We know there aren't any standard references out there that cover the essentials (with the possible exception of uniforms & small arms); we struggle with this everyday. The public is endlessly fascinated with the Wehrmacht, why not the inheritors of this fascinating military heritage? What did the BW keep from the WH and what did they discard? There are literally millions of Cold War veterans out there (myself included; Jens and Gordon too; correct?) from both sides of the Iron Curtain who, as they approach their "golden years", may yearn to revisit their glory days manning "freedom's frontier" with their BW colleagues. Not just "Amis", but other NATO countries as well.

I'd love to see a book on the Post-War German Infantry, East and West, that collectively covers the evolution of both armies from poorly equipped border police forces to the mighty titans of CENTAG. The book would cover uniforms, small arms, equipment (including the four types of ammo pouches that existed before 1970!?), rank structure, squad structure, radios, and infantry fighting vehicles. Peter Blume's, Die Panzergrenadiere Der Bundeswehr 1956-Heute, sets the standard but there's so much missing, especially detailed information on combat gear.

Well that's enough of a rant for now, as usual I'm late for dinner.....

All the best - TJ
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Old 08-20-2009, 02:07 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas J. Cullinane Jr. View Post
...
Jens, based on your pictures of the ZB mask, I think you'd qualify quite nicely as the "industrial photographer".
...

. Peter Blume's, Die Panzergrenadiere Der Bundeswehr 1956-Heute, sets the standard but there's so much missing, especially detailed information on combat gear.

All the best - TJ
Pictures.... I think there are many better photographers out there...

Books covering complete branches incl. vehicles or the whole history of uniform can never be detailed... as you state all details would extend them to 1000 of pages - and, if published, soon will be identified as incomplete as someone comes up with more stuff... so my thoughts focused just on a collectors guide covering the standart types of equipment to help people to devide BW stuff from ZB, NVA etc or just see what is missing in a "basic collection", without prototypes, BGS heritage and field modifications... .

Regards,

Jens

edit:The colour problem... the standart colour of BW Euipment ist called RAL 6014 Gelbolive... but until the late 60ies there was no exact definition under which kind of light the tone of RAl colours should be compared with the speciem...so the early "6014" on surviving equipment has 1000 of sub colours, even depending on the light, changing from yellow-green to brown green etc... . If you build aup a Maico-Krad from original new parts you must paint it completely if you don`t want a chequered bike...

Last edited by Asbjoern; 08-20-2009 at 02:13 AM.
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