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1870 IC by SuL
Old 08-05-2017, 09:05 AM   #1
WaltherW
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Default 1870 IC by SuL

Hi gents,

want to show this IC from SuL...i think it is made after 1960....

the cross is in good quality and have an magnetic core

what do you think ? Never seen a 1870 ic from SuL before...

Opinions welcome

BR Walther


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Old 08-05-2017, 10:03 AM   #2
Dansson
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It looks promising, as the frame is or either is very close to an S&L product.
The frosting looks a bit weird on this one and the orange rust gives me a bad feeling on pieces I haven't encountered before.

I've personally never seen a 1870 piece by S&L that would look like this nor heard of one like this.

I'd be interested to know more of this piece.
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:18 AM   #3
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some closeups











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Old 08-05-2017, 01:00 PM   #4
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I am not an expert on imperial crosses, but as I saw this cross I immediately associated this frame with crosses WW2 ...
Is this a "duplicate" WW2 of 1870 cross?
or "flatboat" with parts of crosses WW2?

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Jarek
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:33 PM   #5
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This might be a dumb question but why would there be a need for for 1870 crosses in the 1960s?
Anyone who participated in the war would have been at least 105 years old in 1960.
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Old 08-06-2017, 03:08 AM   #6
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The core is made of 2 pieces ...

In the Book from H. Geisler is shown one.... dated in the WW2

.....why SuL produced them ....because they can ;-)

BR WW
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Old 08-06-2017, 03:15 AM   #7
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We can define them as a collectors copy. Nothing new at this maker
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:51 AM   #8
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No, it's not for veterans, but it's still a very interesting piece.

I would say it's a Deumer from after 1940 or so.
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Old 08-06-2017, 03:34 PM   #9
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Indeed a postwar produced S&L 1870 EK2. I also have such a postwar made S&L 1870 EK2 in my collection. A rare piece to find. You should be posting it in the 1957/postwar section of the forum. It fits the time period much better.

Here to compare is my postwar S&L 1870 EK2 next to a "postwar" AWS jubilee 1870 EK2 (made around 1900)











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Alex
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Old 08-08-2017, 10:37 PM   #10
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Thx for your work gents
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Old 08-09-2017, 08:11 AM   #11
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I'm sorry but I do not understand. I'm not an expert on imperial crosses but I'm trying to learn intensively.
This particular 1870 cross certainly does not come from the epoch. In other cases, such crosses (for example a copy with an invalid crown) immediately claim that it's "fake" (!)
And in this case "interesting object" maybe S&L, maybe Deumer, post-war but interesting... ???
Why such a difference in ratings?
Depends who shows whether depends on who evaluates?

Regards
Jarek
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Old 08-09-2017, 09:15 AM   #12
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You are rgight, we have here a terminological disorder

In my opinion, we should distinguish "copy" from "fake" and the main difference is purpose of manufacturing. A copy could be made for wearers or collectors purpopses, and nothing wrong here, if it is clear described as non-original.

While fakes are produced to be fraudelent offered as originals (but also a copy made in good faith could become fake, when is selling as a genuine piece).

This cross (discussed also on German forum) was made by a professional manufacturer S&L, but in so late period, that could be for collectors purposes only (a frame from EK2 in 1957 version was used here).
As I wrote before, should be defined as nothing more as a "collectors copy". And could be also interesting - if everybody knows, what he buys.

regards
Tomasz
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Old 08-09-2017, 10:19 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tompress View Post
You are rgight, we have here a terminological disorder

In my opinion, we should distinguish "copy" from "fake" and the main difference is purpose of manufacturing. A copy could be made for wearers or collectors purpopses, and nothing wrong here, if it is clear described as non-original.

While fakes are produced to be fraudelent offered as originals (but also a copy made in good faith could become fake, when is selling as a genuine piece).

This cross (discussed also on German forum) was made by a professional manufacturer S&L, but in so late period, that could be for collectors purposes only (a frame from EK2 in 1957 version was used here).
As I wrote before, should be defined as nothing more as a "collectors copy". And could be also interesting - if everybody knows, what he buys.
regards
Tomasz

Such a division I understand - for collectors = fake.
For veterans = the follower (but not fake)

... and it does not matter who produces it, important that production is not in the epoch

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Jarek
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Old 08-09-2017, 01:41 PM   #14
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Hi,

my very personal opinion (version):

For veterans and collectors = a copy/reproduction (It can only then be a fake/forgery, if the production is intended to deceive the buyer)

... and it does not matter who produces it; important is, that the production is not in the award epoch (in German = Verleihungszeitraum).

Uwe
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Old 08-26-2017, 02:57 PM   #15
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The cross showed is made pheraps in WWI but maximum WWII era.

Not after WWII because the veterans in life would be not more; in 1870 the boys with 18 years old have 87 years old in 1939 (the difference is 69 years.)

They are my personal 2 cents.
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