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Old 08-05-2017, 08:57 AM   #16
Don D.
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And the last.
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Old 08-06-2017, 03:51 PM   #17
Miro O
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I must take my words back, it is not Zimbler eagle, though very close to it. The body is nearly identical, just the head is different. Which can be considered also as a good sign... Eagle looks struck, the wreath as well, so in fact, there is really nothing big to doubt. And if the leaves are really enamelled separately, this badge is close to being passed (as postwar wearer´s copy).

I am just not very sure with the separate enamelling, which I was offered to take as a fact.

Difference between glass enamelling and advanced epoxy enamelling is not easy to spot for untrained eye. When you look at badge in normal angles, both methods look to have same result. It is because the advanced epoxy enamelling (contrary to simple method - covering the wreath with green epoxy), is done in two steps. First the leaves are each separately painted green - and only then the whole wreath is covered with transparent epoxy. The result is that depressed and painted areas get deep green look, while raised and unpainted areas (leaf edges), covered with only nanometres of transparent epoxy, look unenamelled at all.

You can disclose this trick by turning the badge to the flat level (close to 180°) against your eyes. In that moment, you will see the cloud of matte-white haze appearing over the wreath and hovering evenly above the leaves and edges. This effect is imo caused by surface layer scratched from handling, so when the epoxy badge is "like new" it can be really hard to see it. But even in that case - in hand and using strong lens - you would be able to see the uniformity of transparent layer.

Second thing I learned to look for when examining enamelling, is the Epoxy border. Epoxy when applied, tends to pour over the wreath edge and cool out only on its rim. The result is something that looks like casting seam - just soft and uneven.

Of course, we can spend a hours discussing what caused the white haze circled in the pic (but we can´t dismiss that it goes evenly over the raised areas as well as over the depressions). Same way we can rule out the "seam" on the rim (pinpointed with red arrows) as golden gilt incorrectly applied with brush. (but wasn´t the gilt usually applied in bath?).
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Old 08-06-2017, 04:08 PM   #18
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Regarding the words about raised and depressed areas and about separate enamelling...

On the first picture is a detail of original badge. It is not mine, so it can´t be turned to flat angle, but despite straight on look, we can see the "dramatic" relief of the badge. Center row of leaves is raised about 1 mm from its neighbours on the both sides (lesser at the stem, higher at the peak). The center shield with monogram is additional 1 mm thicker than contact area with leaves.

Another relief is done by glass enamel itself. It is in fact just a drop of enamel, one in each leaf, so no wonder it cooled out in a drop shape: thickest in its center, then lowering down in round shape to the edges.

Now you look on second picture where is the badge in question. The words "raised", "depressed" and "separate" have got brand new meaning...
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Old 08-06-2017, 04:39 PM   #19
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Here is a picture that got me stunned for a while, as it speaks (at first sight) against my previously posted statements.

Going back to techniques:

If glass enamelling is done with green glass enamel, then
1. The most depressed area should be more green than less depressed area.
2. Area with glass enamel loss should be completely without green colour.

And if advanced epoxy enamelling is done with painting the basement green and covering it with transparent epoxy, then
1. The most depressed area should be as green as less depressed area.
2. Area with epoxy loss should be still green.

What we see pinpointed with red arrow, is an area of enamel loss. It is nearly without colour, which speaks for glass enamelling.

But - pinpointed with green arrow, we can see where green enamel starts. It is quite sharp border from nothing to deep green - but where is a steep enamel crack in its thickness? And where is the rest of the enamel body itself? Everything what is inside the leaf looks depressed...

The next interesting areas are pinpointed with yellow arrows. They show something lookíng like green paint incorrectly applied on the "raised" edges of the leaves. Both areas are as green as the leaf itself although they are raised and the leaf is depressed. This feature points at advanced epoxy method.

Now tell me how can one badge show two features of two contradictory methods? The answer is that one feature must be staged. Either the enamell loss, or the paint on edges. Guess which.
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Old 08-06-2017, 04:48 PM   #20
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My last question (from this grouping) would be out of previous topic:

What do you think is this?
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Old 08-06-2017, 06:55 PM   #21
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Miro,

Interesting comments and I think if you had access to this badge in hand, you would have even more.

I think you are comparing this badge to known wartime issue badges (if I am not mistaken). And I think if this is indeed a German post-WWI made badge, it would of necessity not match an Austrian made issue piece exactly (for very good reasons).

So, we know, it is not a typical known modern fake (at least not like one anyone has seen yet). It has a previously unknown hallmark. It's possible that the enameling is not epoxy. That is what leads me to think that this badge is a pre-1945 copy.

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Chip
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Old 08-09-2017, 01:39 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip M View Post
So, we know, it is not a typical known modern fake (at least not like one anyone has seen yet). It has a previously unknown hallmark. It's possible that the enameling is not epoxy. That is what leads me to think that this badge is a pre-1945 copy.
Chip, if you have this badge in hand - what is this?
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Old 08-09-2017, 01:46 PM   #23
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In the meantime, I was contacted by another member, who has Naval Pilot Commemorative Badge with this marking for many years. So far he hasn´t found anybody who would successfully confirm his badge to be original.

So maybe collector-colleagues focused on German Pilot badges can help us to solve this mystery. If this German badge is good, at least as post ww1 copy, then the Austrian badge has some chance too. And vice versa.
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Old 08-09-2017, 07:22 PM   #24
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Hello Miro,

Thank you for your continued interest in this thread. It does indeed look like your friend's badge has the same hallmark. Once again, this appears to be an encouraging sign. Especially so, since as you say the owner has had it for many years and it has yet to be identified.

Regarding your question, the piece you see behind the wing is the base metal of the wreath. The wing is slightly offset and therefore you can see part of the flat surface it was riveted to.

Regards,
Chip
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Imperial Badge
Old 08-09-2017, 08:59 PM   #25
Butch Gooch
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Don,
I can't tell you if it is authentic, I hope that it is. I can tel you that it is Beautiful!
All the Best to you, Butch
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