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A couple of new flight badge additions!
Old 05-30-2017, 08:32 AM   #1
Patrick W
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Default A couple of new flight badge additions!

Here are a couple of rarities in quite exceptional condition. My poor photography does not really do these 2 justice but thought I would post them for posterity due to condition/ scarcity.

The airgunner is the same type as on page 318 of Carsten Baldes reference work in silvered brass which was awarded to Ernst Kairat 22 Sept 1918.

The Sedlatzek observer can also be seen on page 258 of same book. This type has also been seen unmarked in silvered brass so my guess is they are from an unknown maker of 1930's and were retailed by Sedlatzek who was well known for hand engraving his company details on bought in awards. You can find the exact same on Gallipoli stars and Spanish crosses....

Anyway enjoy, I hope you like them!
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File Type: jpg 002.jpg (141.8 KB, 305 views)
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Old 05-30-2017, 08:33 AM   #2
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,,,,
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File Type: jpg 005.jpg (126.7 KB, 320 views)
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Old 05-30-2017, 08:34 AM   #3
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....
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Old 05-30-2017, 08:35 AM   #4
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////
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Old 05-30-2017, 07:05 PM   #5
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I don't collect aviation badges so my expertise on these is limited
but, I like what I see. I think that gunners badge is a real beauty.
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Old 05-30-2017, 10:44 PM   #6
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I'm with Greg. I have no idea if they're good but they're very nice looking and the photos are great.
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Old 05-31-2017, 08:42 AM   #7
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I've tried looking up Ernst Kairat in a reference book on Schlachtflieger units and their personnel. I couldn't find him, but it was a quick look and I am to understand that the non-Bavarian list is not complete.

How do you know it belonged to Ernst Kairat? Are there any award documents? ...his militarpass?
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Old 05-31-2017, 09:53 AM   #8
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Thanks Guys, apologies I meant the one in the book belonged to Kairat- my badge is the same variant
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Old 05-31-2017, 10:09 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick W View Post
Thanks Guys, apologies I meant the one in the book belonged to Kairat- my badge is the same variant
I re-read your entry. Yes, you said that. I just jumped at the name and I wanted to see if I could find anything on Mr. Kairat.
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Old 05-31-2017, 12:11 PM   #10
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Wow!

Minty.

Gary B
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Old 05-31-2017, 04:30 PM   #11
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I'm sorry to poor some bitterness in your wine, but:
The first book about imperial flight badges I bought was the Pandis book.
The first thing I learned from this source was that air gunner eagles with nine feathers on the front wing are fakes in his opinion, especially if a single claw is protruding into the gun sight...unfortunately both features are displayed on your example as well.
(The supposedly "Kairat"-piece in the Baldes book has been judged by other experts as "dubious"...maybe for the same reasons.)

The nice observer with the Sedlatzek-mark has been manufactured by BH Mayer, Pforzheim, during the 30ies, IMHO.
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Old 06-01-2017, 03:40 AM   #12
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Two examples of this eagle/crown-style are for sale right now:

EMedals:
https://www.emedals.com/europe/germa...er-badge-47103

German ebay (nobody wanted it for a long time...):
http://www.ebay.de/itm/311794348781?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

(If Pandis is wrong - go for it!)

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Old 06-01-2017, 07:34 AM   #13
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Hi Hagrid

The Pandis book did not get very good reviews when it came out but was the first effort at a full volume on Imperial flight badges, it has since been superceeded by Previtera and Baldes so is useful but not as a stand alone reference.

In answer- Pandis got it half right

What he did was repeat an existing collector dogma regarding 9 vs 10 feathers- there are of course 9 feather fakes but also original hollow badges exist which formed the basis for these fakes.

Of the 2 links you show the emedals badge is genuine in my opinion; the ebay badge is a one look fake which is cast from the face of an original hollow badge- look at all the flawing in the ground behind the eagle!

Here is another of these pretty poor copies with the ground reworked-

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=894950&highlight=pandis

At the time Pandis was collecting and writing the market was awash with the well known Juncker marked crown fakes with rayed and unrayed reverses which come in every type of flight badge and exist in their thousands, the fakers used this same 9 feather die to produce this copy and that is where I think this has originated. There is as I am sure you know a very close in design hollow award version found in stamped steel or brass which has the 10 feathers but from a different die- those badges date to 1918 or very soon after.

Here is an interesting thread from former noted member Frank Heukemes who obtained a badge such as mine from directly within his own family provenanced prior to WW2- this thread also shows one of the old fake solid badges of the same design-

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=pandis

My opinion is that this type of hollow badge is from the 1920's or 30's and will have been made by one of the bigger companies such as S&L. The finish type and setup on my badge is very typical of production immediately prior to or at the start of WW2 (as some of you will know I specialise in Third Reich era decorations), the ? shaped catch is not commonly used so I will see if I can narrow down a possible maker.

All that aside an item should stand on it's own merits in terms of construction; finish; ageing etc and an experienced eye will tell you that. Having this badge in hand there are aspects of the patina that it is not possible to fake. I can tell you with all certainty that the badge that started this thread was produced prior to the end of WW2.
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Old 06-01-2017, 01:33 PM   #14
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Hey Patrick - thanks for your extensive reply!
(Unfortunately the first link does not work (on my system?) and the - in this context - so important Frank-H.-pics are gone...)
- I assume that you´re right postulating an original as a role model for the "nine feather fakes"..... unless these have been newly created as fakes from the beginning.
- I´m well aware of the diversity of opinions published in the current books. Admittedly I have to check whether Baldes or Previtera have other 9ers on display... I know that Pandis still sticks to his opinion in his latest release from last year - unless the eagle has 2 Claws in the gunsight (?) => I really have to look up these things
- I personally think S&L had a different design, by the way...
( http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=855521)
To me the style of the leaves on your badge (with their little pimples) resembles the type of pilots badge Previtera is attributing to Deumer...
But unless harder evidence about the eventual maker surfaces, there will be a lot of speculation involved.
And I like it!
(At least we have two examples with a presumed provenance: Frank's piece from the familiy and the Kairat one from the Baldes book.
Devils advocate: " One never could know when the veterans bought their badges - even in the 50ies a WW1 flyer was only in his sixties..."
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Hagrid

Last edited by Hagrid; 06-01-2017 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 06-03-2017, 02:39 PM   #15
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I like the air gunners badge. I hope it's real as it looks very convincing to me.
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