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Imperial Militaria Forum The discussion and study of Imperial German awards and of their Central Powers Allies from the First World War

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Old 05-10-2016, 12:01 PM   #31
Miro O
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Originally Posted by avensis2000 View Post
3) Swords were awarded for example with Militärverdienstmedaille (Signum Laudis) but not with Militärdienstzeichen if you mean them (at least I have never seen any)
Thank you for your answers, yes I meant Service medals - Militärdienstzeichen.
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Old 05-10-2016, 12:16 PM   #32
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1) Right way to describe/translate to english should be "military merit cross 3rd class with war decoration and swords (on ribbon)"
Yess, that´s it. Swords on Austrian decorations were always part of the ribbon, not of the award itself. This is what confused me on Pandis translation.
Because if somebody writes "...cross with swords" without mentioning ribbon (and omitting War Decoration) it looks like there should be swords on the cross.
So, finally, I was correct to say Austrian medals never had swords - these were added only to ribbon. And not only to MVK and Signum Laudis, but also to FJO.
And the "War decoration" on award itself, was laurel wreath. So KD should be mentioned in the translation - and before swords.

Last edited by Miro O; 05-10-2016 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 05-10-2016, 12:32 PM   #33
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I can understand some wrong translations, since "verdienst" is easily (falsely, in my opinion) been translated to "service" sometimes, but in this case the right translation would be "merit".
I think this is a kind of mistake, which we can understand and afford here on forum, because it will be quickly corrected, but I am not sure if it can be afforded by author of the reference book.

Last edited by Miro O; 05-10-2016 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 05-10-2016, 12:59 PM   #34
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Hi,

Many AH awards do have swords on decoration itself. (Well... Maybe not "many", but quite a few anyway)

Mvk 2 and 1 for example have swords crossed in the cross itself, not on ribbon

I agree about book, they should be written and translated carefully - unfortunately there are very few really good books about these - especially in english language (if anyone knows any, would be nice if they were "advertised" here)

Last edited by avensis2000; 05-10-2016 at 01:05 PM. Reason: Add text
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Old 05-10-2016, 06:06 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by avensis2000 View Post
Hi,

Many AH awards do have swords on decoration itself. (Well... Maybe not "many", but quite a few anyway)

Mvk 2 and 1 for example have swords crossed in the cross itself, not on ribbon
Hey, I was speaking about common soldiers and officers awards, not orders for higher staff awarded only rarely. Don´t grill me to "well done".

But OK, I understand your point, I should learn to speak more diplomaticaly, mainly when I am not specialized on Austrian awards.

So correction please:

Swords on Austrian decorations are found most likely on ribbons. Caution is urged with swords on awards.

Better now?

Last edited by Miro O; 05-10-2016 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:38 PM   #36
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Here is one I used to have, perfectly fine I was told by some who are well versed in these--
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File Type: jpg y-4622 109.jpg (94.6 KB, 339 views)
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:39 PM   #37
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detail
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Old 05-13-2016, 05:28 AM   #38
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Here is one I used to have, perfectly fine I was told by some who are well versed in these--
Hi John,

Thank you for showing up and showing off. Your badge is nicely photographed, well preserved and perfectly original wartime badge. Needless to say, it is identical to the badge in question. It has still preserved both crosses on crowns (though the Austrian one is bent to the front) and in this condition reaches 900 - 1.350 USD on American market.

Despite of really great condition we can see partial enamel loss (within one leaf) on 11 o´clock position - very good sign of wartime method of applying glass enamel on each leaf separately.

So if you sold this badge as original, you can sleep well.



In this moment I would like to add one more statement about enamels. We have already seen one opinion here, that different colour of enamel at the top of the leaves is a red flag.

In my opinion it is a sign of highest craftmanship. It is really hard to find another example of award on which an enamel has more than one colour within borders of one enamel pattern (one leaf, one letter, one object etc.)

Multicolour effect (as here on crown, or in bottom shield) is always reached by pattern within pattern (an outline of K letter is border for red enamel, outline of shield is border for white enamel).

Definition of these borders is already struck in tombac preform (the "body" of the badge) before enamelling process. But two colours - or better two shades of same colour - within one pattern, in other words - one small piece of enamel glass in two different colours - in my opinion it is a sign of precise handmade work.

I doubt any faker would ever bother with attempting to do something like this. Maybe this is the reason why Horvath fake chose to imitate all the other - evenly green - types of Austrian Pilots badges, but not this one.

I really like this Autumn effect.
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Last edited by Miro O; 05-13-2016 at 06:08 AM.
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Old 05-13-2016, 05:49 PM   #39
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Quote:
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Nicely argumented and richly pictured piece of work, Miro!
Thank you!
Regards
Hagrid
I agree completely. I have no idea if the piece pictured is the real deal
or not BUT I tend to believe that it is from your very convincing argument.
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Old 05-14-2016, 04:09 PM   #40
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Personally I like it and if the crosses were still there I probably would have bought it.
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Old 05-14-2016, 05:38 PM   #41
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Same here, I would have bought it immediately had the crosses, on the crowns, been intact.

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Old 05-31-2016, 05:31 AM   #42
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Hello,

I've been away for a while, especially for family reasons, but here I am, back to the discussions about Imperial Austrian awards.

This one, centered on the Feldpilotenabzeichen, is very interesting and I appreciate the efforts of Miro in this topic.

I also think that the badge under investigation is a wartime piece, earlier than Nov. 4th, 1918 (or when the A-H forces, surrendered to Italy).

I am also sure that between the wars, other manufacturers produced the badges of the former A-H aviation (Rothe and Reitterer, for instance, both from the same dies), but they're distinctively different from the "K" type with two-colour enamel.

A little observation about enamels: if "fully-intact" enamels could be an alarm revelating a fake, I would also add that an advanced, creative faker, would easily give to his production a worn appearance too, by artificial wear, oxydation and... enamel damage. I've recently been called for help in a dispute between two collectors: one -the buyer- telling that a FJ badge was a fake, the other -the seller- that his piece was a wartime, strongly used piece.

We calmly sat down at a restaurant, here in my region (well worth to eat there!) and discussed about the whole thing.

The badge had enamel damages to the wreath's green enamel; crown's top was bent, the Seeadler was worn, and the whole showed a dark patina and a few greenspan, with a general appearance of "longly-preserved/forgotten-in-a-box-in-the-basement". The only problem: the badge was a typical, beautiful copy of Rothe of the type sold by the Viennese jewellers in the '60s-early '80s of 20th Century.

The seller, didn't resist for too long and after the main course, he admitted that he bought a Rothe piece some years earlier and artificially gave it an "ancient, venerable" appearance, trying to sell it to some collectors, who refused it. Only, the young buyer, attracted by the realtively low price (600,- Euro), took it, lately proudly showing the piece to other, advanced collectors, that gave him the bad news.

While having the coffee, an agreement was found: the seller, had in his own collection a very fine, original, Zimbler Feldpilotenabzeichen "K" and gave it to the then happy, young collector.

I hope I haven't been boring with this story: just to remember that studying before buying, would lead to less bad surprises.

This 3-pages discussion, in my opinion, can be highly instructive to all of us.

Best wishes,

Enzo (E.L.)
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Old 06-01-2016, 12:43 PM   #43
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Thanks Elmar. Nice to hear from you again.
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Old 06-21-2016, 05:59 PM   #44
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I would like to see this thread pinned. Excellent reference.
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Old 06-23-2016, 04:02 PM   #45
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I'll pin it for now but would like to see it expanded if possible for inclusion into the reference threads database.
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