wehrmacht awards


Go Back   Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums > Ken Jasper International Militaria Forums > Imperial Militaria Forum

Imperial Militaria Forum The discussion and study of Imperial German awards and of their Central Powers Allies from the First World War

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

Old 05-09-2016, 03:31 AM   #16
Miro O
Association Member
 
Miro O's Avatar
 
Miro O is offline
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Slovakia
Posts: 1,235
Default

2. Hollow rivets

So, hollow rivets are red flag. Time to buy some Horvath fakes as originals, because they all have solid rivets. Fortunately, I do have some reverses, so I can serve.

First pic: reverse of Horvath fake of Austrian Pilots badge FJ type, 1st version

Second pic: reverse of Horvath fake of FJ type, 2nd version
Attached Images
File Type: jpg apb2lc3.jpg (82.7 KB, 201 views)
File Type: jpg FJ_c.jpg (142.9 KB, 198 views)
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-09-2016, 04:16 AM   #17
Miro O
Association Member
 
Miro O's Avatar
 
Miro O is offline
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Slovakia
Posts: 1,235
Default

3. Low quality enamels

I think I already wrote enough about theme of enamels. So now just short resume. On the pic below you can see white shields from Austrian Pilot badges.

Top left is shield of original early Karl type, taken from Pandis book (upscaled scan from post Nr. 10). We both (Mr. Pandis and me) agree it is original.

Top right is shield of late war badge from Estand.

Known fakes of Karl and FJ Type are in bottom row.

It is interesting how enamel condition of two badges on top match. Same aging, same tarnishing to pink spots. And it is surprising that for Mr. Pandis is one original and the second one low quality enamel fake.

Also, after seeing this comparison of conditions of originals versus fakes - would anyone of you say, that high quality enamel is sign of original and low quality of fake?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Shields.jpg (110.0 KB, 196 views)
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-09-2016, 04:41 AM   #18
Miro O
Association Member
 
Miro O's Avatar
 
Miro O is offline
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Slovakia
Posts: 1,235
Default

4. Large Eagle style

Finally, this part is the greatest evidence how Mr. Pandis deeply and thoroughly studied Austrian Pilots Badges.

Eagle on last wartime badge is not larger than on earlier Karl type badge. It is smaller. Bigger look is just optical effect caused by the fact, that laurel wreath on late war type is more slim (not so fat-rounded) as wreath on earlier type.

Do you want some stone evidence? You will find it in scans from Mr. Pandis book!!!

a.) Dimensions of early Karl type from scan in post Nr. 10:
Length: 62 mm
Width 60 mm

b.) Dimensions of late war type badge "with large eagle style" (Mike´s post Nr. 14):
Length: 61,8 mm
Width: 59 mm

Correct me, if I am wrong, but width of the Austrian badge is defined by eagle wingtips as farthest points in horizontal axis.
The eagle, considered by Mr. Pandis as "large", was in fact measured by same Mr. Pandis and the result was: 1 mm smaller wingspan than eagle which is considered by him as original.

Side note: I must admit, I believe there is a same wingspan between early and late war eagle and the 1 mm difference is caused by the fact that wingtips on Mr. Pandis late war badge have heavily bent wingtips. I am not sure if Mr. Pandis really took in account this fact.

Mr. Pandis is right in one thing - Fake eagle is really bigger than original eagle. But
1. Late war eagle is either smaller or identical size as early Karl approved original
2. Eagle on Horvath fakes is identical on all badges types - and is very different either from early originals, or from discussed late war type.

Last edited by Miro O; 05-09-2016 at 05:19 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-09-2016, 06:03 AM   #19
Miro O
Association Member
 
Miro O's Avatar
 
Miro O is offline
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Slovakia
Posts: 1,235
Default

5. "The badge is unverified and likely a post 1945 made copy. Caution is urged with these badges."

Again very interesting sentence, telling me more about quality of Mr. Pandis research, than about the quality of badge itself.

With the words highlighted in red you can win the court that you in fact said nothing bad. Every average lawyer, who would defend you, would successfully translate these sentences as:

- Badge is unverified: in other words - Mr. Pandis didn´t studied this type of badge, or Mr. Pandis attempted to study it, but came to no definitive conclusion. "Unverified" means there is a possibility of future verification, so Mr. Pandis in fact said nothing definitive against this badge.

- likely: something like probably, the most popular word of journalists, allows you to say whatever without risk of bearing some responsibility for it.

- Caution is urged: This word-configuration is again just road from troubles. Mr. Pandis didn´t say: "Don´t buy these fakes". He just warned others to be "cautious with these badges". It was just warning - something like "Harmful if swallowed", you know...


Mr. Niemann has his Small crown fake, Mr. Previtera has his Ninth Bead fake.
Many other writers presented some new fake in their book as original.
Mr. Pandis goes opposite way - he makes fakes from originals. But the damage caused can be the same.

When I started to study Austrian Pilots badges, there was no Mr. Pandis with his book. He was "expert" on German Pilots badges at that time. There was also no other book.

All knowledge I received had to be digged out of Austrian, Czech, Russian or Italian forums, had to be made by observations of originals and fakes on dealer´s sites (and building of reference archive), had to be received from private correspondence with specialised and respected collectors.

Now, when I started to feel some system, started to understand similarities, differences and red flags, one "opinion" in the book - backed up with such weak arguments, but dressed in such perfect lawyer´s coat - can´t change my mind.

In the same period of time, during which I barely learned the important info about Austrian Pilots badges, Mr. Pandis left the German Imperial badges field and became expert on such rare fields as Austrian, Turkish or Bulgarian pilots badges of all types, including observers and marine. Expert enough to publish the book. My hat down.

I think I´ve posted enough arguments to show that I know my stuff. Now Mr. Pandis is on move to "most likely" present us his arguments, because some "caution is urged".

Last edited by Miro O; 05-09-2016 at 06:35 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-09-2016, 08:42 AM   #20
Hagrid
Member
 
Hagrid is offline
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 187
Default

Nicely argumented and richly pictured piece of work, Miro!
Thank you!
Regards
Hagrid
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-09-2016, 06:16 PM   #21
Miro O
Association Member
 
Miro O's Avatar
 
Miro O is offline
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Slovakia
Posts: 1,235
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagrid View Post
Nicely argumented and richly pictured piece of work, Miro!
Thank you!
Regards
Hagrid
Thank you.
In fact, all of this long argumentation can be quickly substituted with one short, strong and unbeaten argument: period photo of late war type in wear. This would be the golden nail of this discussion. Unfortunately, pictures of Austrian pilots badges, good enough to tell the type variant, are rarer than these badges themselves.

But I did find something interesting - if not useful - in my reference folder: period drawing of Karl Type badge, as was published in Verordnungsblatt 47 from October 1917 (see picture). Text of Verordnungsblatt (official order) is not very relevant for this discussion. It is about changing the hardware style on the new type of Pilots badges from previous needle system to two hooks (Karabinerhaften). I´ve never doubted that attachment system changed from needle to hooks and then back to needle, and as such was used during 20´s on post war replacements which are great evidence of the needle returning back (although postwar pin was different from war type one).

What is even more important, is the drawing itself. It´s all we have in this moment, so let´s make some picture work again.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Blatt.jpg (67.8 KB, 179 views)

Last edited by Miro O; 05-09-2016 at 06:27 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-09-2016, 06:23 PM   #22
Miro O
Association Member
 
Miro O's Avatar
 
Miro O is offline
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Slovakia
Posts: 1,235
Default

Picture below is showing upscaled and resized drawing of Karl Badge from Verordnungsblatt 47/1917. To the left of period drawing is accepted early type. To the right is discussed late war type. I pinpointed some similarities/differences, so let´s go through them.

1.: Accepted early Karl Type badge to the left has both ends of headband (sweatband) in contact with crown.
On period drawing, ends of headband don´t touch the crown. Same as on discussed late war Karl type to the right.

2. On period drawing, as well as on discussed late war type, the wreath under the right wing is visibly thinner (from outer side). On early war type, it is approximately of same width there as anywhere else.

3. Right foot on "K" letter is visibly lower than the left foot. On period drawing, and on discussed late war type. Surprisingly, accepted original has letter K visibly tilted to opposite side with right foot higher than the left one.

4. Laurel wreath under the left wing is wider, because of leaf "bending" to the inner side. On period drawing, as well as on late war type. Contrary to this, on early Karl Type, there is just the cut to the leaves profile.

There are even more surprising similarities, but these are not clearly seen on these pics. For example, there is a fancy bow on sweatband under the crowns - again identically on period drawing and on late war type. On early war type, there is just a tight knot - and four strips of sweatband going to four sides (it can be clearly seen on pic in the post Nr 13).

Correct me if I am wrong to say that the badge on period drawing resembles, if not clearly depicts late war type. In this moment I am not able to explain why this badge is presented in the connection with hardware which was never used on her, but I see her basic features there - on period drawing, back in October 1917. There is something on that little beauty.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Comparison.jpg (111.1 KB, 176 views)

Last edited by Miro O; 05-09-2016 at 06:33 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-09-2016, 06:36 PM   #23
Mike Swan
Association Member
 
Mike Swan is online now
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,481
Default

Hello Miro.

You've put forward a comprehensive and compelling argument in favour of your badge. It should also be noted that Mr Pandis states that not all contributors to his books agree with his conclusions.

Due to our great distances from the European and US collecting scenes, such badges aren't readily available for personal examination and we mainly rely on references and knowledgeable advice.

Regards, Mike.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2016, 01:06 AM   #24
Coburg
Member
 
Coburg's Avatar
 
Coburg is offline
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Leicestershire UK
Posts: 795
Default

Great work Miro

Jim
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2016, 03:21 AM   #25
Miro O
Association Member
 
Miro O's Avatar
 
Miro O is offline
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Slovakia
Posts: 1,235
Default

I would really appreciate, if some collectors of German Imperial Aviation badges can chime in and help us to make picture about quality of Mr. Pandis work. I know there is a strong community of them here, which is surely bigger than community of Austrian badges collectors.

All what I´ve found as a reference is discussion on another forum (see picture below).

I would like to add a few words to post from scan below of Jaba1914:

To work on a book is really a lot of work and I do have respect for people who go this way. But when somebody attempts to go to virgin field (at least for english speaking collectors), he should feel a lot of respect too.

Because his book will not be only one of the books about particular field - which can be quickly compared with other works and widely discussed by already existing collectors community. It will be the first book, which can be compared only with badges for sale. And it will not be discussed, but only worshiply quoted by small collectors-rookies community, which is just about to being built.

This post will quickly get lost in the forum stream, but Pandis book will proudly stay in collector´s libraries, uncompared and thus unbeaten. Keeping up to spread disaster.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg GMIC_scan.jpg (91.6 KB, 187 views)
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2016, 04:20 AM   #26
Miro O
Association Member
 
Miro O's Avatar
 
Miro O is offline
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Slovakia
Posts: 1,235
Default

Maybe also some collectors of Austrian Imperial medals and orders can chime in and confirm this fatal fault.

We were already chewing this Pandis scan, but there is even one more interesting thing:
Mr. Pandis uses irelevant diploma to fancy up the background of presented badge. He describes it as a "diploma for Military Service Cross with swords, Third Class".

Again, correct me if I am wrong, dear Austro-Hungarians, but something like this never existed in Austro-Hungarian awards system.

On the diploma itself we can clearly see, what was translated by Mr. Pandis as Military Service Cross with Swords:

"...dienstkreuz 3. Klasse (KD)"

KD means Kriegsdekoration - war decoration, which was in A-H army not swords (as in German army), but laurel wreath.

and ...dienstkreuz means Verdienstkreuz - Merit Cross, not Service cross. Service cross was called Militärdienstzeichen in Austrian army.

And anyway, service crosses hadn´t war decorations, neither in Austrian nor in German army.

Sorry to say that book of Mr. Pandis deeply underestimates quality of its reader.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Pandis_2.jpg (69.7 KB, 184 views)

Last edited by Miro O; 05-10-2016 at 05:44 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2016, 06:29 AM   #27
Miro O
Association Member
 
Miro O's Avatar
 
Miro O is offline
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Slovakia
Posts: 1,235
Default

Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Klasse with Kriegsdekoration III. Klasse (KDs were awarded in separate classes too) on a medal bar (third from the left). In the background of formal diploma to MVK 3. Klasse (mid-war type), as awarded to German officer.

You can clearly see that KD means laurel wreath - not swords. The only Austrian and Hungarian medals with swords representing combatants (you can see them to the right of MVK) were postwar commemorative medals from 1929, issued by Austrian and/or Hungarian republic. More than ten years after fall of Austrian monarchy.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg KM_2.jpg (67.4 KB, 182 views)
File Type: jpg KM_1.jpg (109.5 KB, 184 views)

Last edited by Miro O; 05-10-2016 at 06:37 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2016, 08:19 AM   #28
avensis2000
Member
 
avensis2000 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Helsinki / Finland
Posts: 403
Default

Hi Miro,

I am not sure if I understood what you mean, but MVK all classes with KD and swords were awarded. Starting from 16th Dec 1916, they were awarded "für Tapferkeit vor dem Feinde" - for bravery in front of enemy.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2016, 10:23 AM   #29
Miro O
Association Member
 
Miro O's Avatar
 
Miro O is offline
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Slovakia
Posts: 1,235
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by avensis2000 View Post
Hi Miro,

I am not sure if I understood what you mean, but MVK all classes with KD and swords were awarded. Starting from 16th Dec 1916, they were awarded "für Tapferkeit vor dem Feinde" - for bravery in front of enemy.
Thank you for correcting me, I must take part of my words back.
There is indeed written in the diploma "...dienstkreuz 3. Klasse (KD)" and faintly "und schwertern" with different stamp. Sorry for this mistake. I was calling for Austrian medals experts, so I have them. I should keep up sticking with pilots badges.

But would you, as a English and German speaking collector of Austrian medals...

1. ...translate the sentence "Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Klasse (KD) und Schwertern" as "Military Service Cross 3rd class with swords"? Do you feel this translation appropriate enough for the book? Shouldn´t it be: Military Merit Cross 3rd class with War decoration and Swords?

2. Did "Kriegsdekoration" ever represent only swords in Austrian Army?

3. Were ever swords awarded with Austrian Service medals?
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2016, 10:45 AM   #30
avensis2000
Member
 
avensis2000 is offline
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Helsinki / Finland
Posts: 403
Default

Hi Miro,

I am faaaar away being from expert, but here's what I think about these: (I hope someone corrects this if something is not right)

1) Right way to describe/translate to english should be "military merit cross 3rd class with war decoration and swords (on ribbon)"

I can understand some wrong translations, since "verdienst" is easily (falsely, in my opinion) been translated to "service" sometimes, but in this case the right translation would be "merit".

2) I don't know - but in my opinion swords don't represent "war decoration" in any medals/crosses. In my opinion they represent bravery - I hope someone corrects this if have better information.

3) Swords were awarded for example with Militärverdienstmedaille (Signum Laudis) but not with Militärdienstzeichen if you mean them (at least I have never seen any)
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump






vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright Wehrmacht-Awards.com