wehrmacht awards


Go Back   Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums > Wehrmacht Uniforms and Equipment > Achtung Panzer! Forum

Achtung Panzer! Forum This forum is designated to discuss the equipment, battles and people of the Panzertruppe.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

Old 10-21-2012, 04:10 PM   #31
peterm
Association Member
 
peterm's Avatar
 
peterm is offline
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Austria
Posts: 5,781
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd I. View Post
You're most welcome. Es macht mir schieß egal.
Thanks for Your "kind" words. I don't spell more time in changing arguments with guys like You. Believe whatever You want.

Peter
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2012, 05:05 PM   #32
Schnellmeyer
Member
 
Schnellmeyer is offline
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 456
Default

I have been watching this thread very closely and it went from trying to I.D. the Tiger Michael Wittmann used in VB to who killed him .
I have had the honour and pleasure of meeting many of Micael Wittmann's friends , his wife Hilde and his sister Anne . Speaking to these people Michael was not a "Nazi " as some posters claim , he was a soldier who was used by the Nazis for propaganda . The death of Michael did not " end the nazi's reign of terror" , sadly this was to continue for another nine months .
I would love to know where the title " The Black Baron" came from , he was never called this by his kamerads .
I have watched the show about who killed Michael and I have my own opinion , it was also said that Roy Brown shot down The Red Baron but did he ????
At the end of the day it is sad to see soldiers from all sides killed in action , in spite of what side they fought with they too were sons .
I respect Joe Ekins and Michael Wittmann for having the courage to even stand up and fight .
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2012, 07:26 PM   #33
wolfslair44
Association Member
 
wolfslair44 is online now
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,486
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnellmeyer View Post
I have been watching this thread very closely and it went from trying to I.D. the Tiger Michael Wittmann used in VB to who killed him .
I have had the honour and pleasure of meeting many of Micael Wittmann's friends , his wife Hilde and his sister Anne . Speaking to these people Michael was not a "Nazi " as some posters claim , he was a soldier who was used by the Nazis for propaganda . The death of Michael did not " end the nazi's reign of terror" , sadly this was to continue for another nine months .
I would love to know where the title " The Black Baron" came from , he was never called this by his kamerads .
I have watched the show about who killed Michael and I have my own opinion , it was also said that Roy Brown shot down The Red Baron but did he ????
At the end of the day it is sad to see soldiers from all sides killed in action , in spite of what side they fought with they too were sons .
I respect Joe Ekins and Michael Wittmann for having the courage to even stand up and fight
.
I echo these thoughts.

If anyone else would like to chime in on what tank Wittman was in at VB, I would be grateful.

Best,
Scott
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-21-2012, 07:45 PM   #34
Schnellmeyer
Member
 
Schnellmeyer is offline
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 456
Default

Hi Scott , I have been to VB many times and took many photos of the battle scene as I am sure many people have . I will check my notes and see if I can be of help to you . I was very good friends with Rtff. Walter Lau who was a gunner in the 101 . He also served for a time with Michael Wittmann when Woll was sick , his final post was with Helmut Wendorff and was the gunner on the day they were "taken out" . He was a real gentleman and spoke very highly of the British troopers that saved his life from the burning Tiger .
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-22-2012, 01:00 AM   #35
Lloyd I.
Member
 
Lloyd I.'s Avatar
 
Lloyd I. is offline
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Eye in the Sky
Posts: 2,263
Default

Wittmann was a very brave Tanker. So much so that he often rushed in head first throughout his career. I do not doubt his character or his exemplary devotion to duty. I've got Agte's volume because I wanted to learn about him. I think his zeal at times clouded his tactical judgement but this actually lead to both his victory at VB and in the end his demise.

For me the trouble comes with honoring the one and not the whole. I guess this is where some of us differ and where I get all pissy. Were I to visit the German cemetery where he and his crew were finally laid to rest I would lay a wreath for them ALL and not just Wittmann. Fresh flowers should be there year round and not just on one grave. It is not sad that Wittmann died but rather that so many died. Perhaps naively I think had Wittmann survived that day he would have toasted the guy who finally knocked him out and would be grateful it was another tanker. This seems to have fit his character and ethos.

Brewed up is tankers term I first learned when I became AT qualified. Maybe others aren't familiar with it in the context of armor.anti-armor.

Age brings cynicism Peter. In the end it makes no difference whether it's a GI or a Landser, a Wittmann or a McDowell. That is what I meant, es ist egal.

There is a specific picture of VB that shows the turret number of one of the Tigers.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-22-2012, 01:43 AM   #36
tracman
Member
 
tracman is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 226
Default

I am aware of the arguments that place Wittmann in Tiger 212 as opposed to 222. These are brilliant arguments based on extremely detailed review of available photography: let me summarize these arguments as I see them:

The Tiger universally believed to be the one used by Wittmann was abandoned in central VB after being damaged. Wittmann's own testimony is that he abandoned it after it was hit and disabled his running gear and that he and his crew then legged it to Orbois. This tank is almost universally believed to have later been set afire by Bill Cotton. It's turret markings (number) are obscured by soot from the fire: it has a monocular sight.

The best pictures of the 101st SS Heavy Tank Battalion prior to this engagement were taken on the way to the battlefield, not far from Lyons la Foret, in/near the town of Morgny en Vexin. Other pictures, primarily of the third company, were taken near Beauvais in May 1944 during training exercises. Of those taken outside of Morgny on/about 7 June 1944, one shows Tiger 212 in the distance: it is three tanks behind Wittmann, who is commanding at that time Tiger 205 (which broke down later and never made it to the battlefield). There are some who believe this tank has a monocular sight based on a very detailed review of this photograph.

There is a well known series of shots taken of a second company Tiger towing another one just after the battle of VB, and the last digit of its number is believed to be a 2. This Tiger has a binocular sight.

Panzer commanders did not always use their own tanks (viz: Wittmann using Tiger 007 in August 1944, etc...).

Analyses of the post-battle pictures of the towing Tiger, based on the spacing between the digits of the turret numbering, lead to the conclusion that it is numbered 222: therefore, according to this analysis, it can't be the tank Wittmann used, since his had a monocular sight and the one pictured after the battle towing another one has a binocular one.

My comments (and these are mine alone) follow, and I very much welcome any information that would correct my conjecture:

a. I simply cannot tell by looking at the picture of Tiger 212 outside of Morgny whether it has a monocular or binocular sight. Severe pixelation makes this impossible on a computer: arguably, a trip to the Bundesarchiv is in order to review the original photograph with a 10x loupe.

b. I am not 100% convinced by those who argue about spacing between digits on the turret numbering being a useful clue to deciphering obscured turret numbers. Those numbers painted on the rear of the stowage boxes were evidently done using templates and appear, from photography, to have been very cleanly and evenly done. Those on the (zimmerit'ed) turret sides are, in many cases, uneven, both in terms of spacing between digits as well as symmetry. This is very evident in looking at pictures of tanks from all three companies prior to their going into battle (ie: when their markings were clean and undamaged).

c. there appears to be little argument that Kurt Sowa was at the scene in VB. He was the commander of 222. Since the 2nd company had not seen combat yet, and with most crews responsible for the maintenance of their own tanks, it stands to reason that crews would have stayed behind to fix their disabled tanks, as indeed the majority of the 2nd company's tanks had broken down en route to Normandy. I have yet to find an explanation as to why Sowa would have switched to command another tank.

Again, these observations are mine alone: I am no expert on this matter, only an interested amateur who has been to VB several times in an effort to better understand the events that happened there on 13 June 1944. I am constantly gratefully surprised by the depth of research and analysis on this and other events of the Normandy campaign that continues to make the light of day in both published works and internet discussion fora, and would welcome further comment.

If anyone else would like to chime in on what tank Wittman was in at VB, I would be grateful.

Best,
Scott[/QUOTE]
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2012, 04:53 PM   #37
Lloyd I.
Member
 
Lloyd I.'s Avatar
 
Lloyd I. is offline
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Eye in the Sky
Posts: 2,263
Default

I put this together over the weekend since this thread has actually caused me to re-evaluate and take another look at Wittmann.


By Wittmann's own account his Tiger was disabled by a hit to the drive sprocket, they did not destroy the tank after firing everything he had. This Now and Then image I created also shows the damage to the sprocket and track that blew the mud guard up. I also inverted the image and one can make out the turret number 222.


Enjoy.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg VB Then and Now Tiger 222.jpg (55.5 KB, 719 views)
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-28-2012, 04:54 PM   #38
Lloyd I.
Member
 
Lloyd I.'s Avatar
 
Lloyd I. is offline
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Eye in the Sky
Posts: 2,263
Default

Tiger 222.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 101ss 222 Wittmanns TIger VB.jpg (61.3 KB, 752 views)
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-29-2012, 03:48 AM   #39
tracman
Member
 
tracman is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 226
Default

The hull marking above the bow MG identify this Tiger as from the 1st company. It almost certainly isn't #222. This tank was knocked out later in the day by a 6-pounder AT gun of the Queen's Regiment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd I. View Post
Tiger 222.
  Reply With Quote

Tiger 222
Old 10-30-2012, 10:16 AM   #40
wolfslair44
Association Member
 
wolfslair44 is online now
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,486
Default Tiger 222

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd I. View Post
Tiger 222.
Lloyd, where does that '222' in the photo come from? Is that something you have digitally enhanced or something else?
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-30-2012, 08:50 PM   #41
Lloyd I.
Member
 
Lloyd I.'s Avatar
 
Lloyd I. is offline
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Eye in the Sky
Posts: 2,263
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfslair44 View Post
Lloyd, where does that '222' in the photo come from? Is that something you have digitally enhanced or something else?
Bon Matin Wolfslair44,

I know it's difficult to see but I have inverted the image which shows the numbers. Another photo forensic method is to tilt the photograph under magnification. You can often get more detail from images by simply inverting them this way. In the case of this photo this is just one of the adjusted ones. I also adjusted out color which reveals the numbers better. There are five of these adjusted I worked on as well as a then and now at Gaumesnil of 007.

With reference to the knocked at armor at VB I am just exploring alternatives. Given Wittmann's recorded statements, the fact the he was not in his usual track at VB, I am trying to locate an alternative to the two Tigers usually claimed as his and using photographic forensic analysis methods. He mentions removing the armaments and disabling the tank though not destroying it. Does not mean I will arrive at anything conclusive but it's worth exploring.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-30-2012, 09:25 PM   #42
Lloyd I.
Member
 
Lloyd I.'s Avatar
 
Lloyd I. is offline
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Eye in the Sky
Posts: 2,263
Default

For review. If this Tiger is from 1st Co then 132 or 122?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 101ss1 or 2 company.jpg (11.2 KB, 723 views)
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-31-2012, 12:23 AM   #43
Lloyd I.
Member
 
Lloyd I.'s Avatar
 
Lloyd I. is offline
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Eye in the Sky
Posts: 2,263
Default

Another example. This has usually always been identified at 112. It's actually 102.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ss101tiger112villersbocage1.jpg (90.4 KB, 723 views)
File Type: jpg ss101tiger112villersbocage1 copy.jpg (59.4 KB, 724 views)
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-31-2012, 11:27 AM   #44
tracman
Member
 
tracman is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 226
Default

102? Whose mount was that then? I was under the impression that there was no Tiger from that unit with that number...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd I. View Post
Another example. This has usually always been identified at 112. It's actually 102.
  Reply With Quote

Old 10-31-2012, 03:35 PM   #45
MarioL
Member
 
MarioL is offline
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Deutschland
Posts: 139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd I. View Post
Another example. This has usually always been identified at 112. It's actually 102.
There was no "102" in this unit, and it is "112".
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump






vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright Wehrmacht-Awards.com