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Old 09-27-2017, 02:09 PM   #31
Hagrid
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Hi Tony!
It´s me again – I can not upload more than two pictures, that why I post my opinions on the Bavarians in this "extra edition".
Baldes lists the observer shown here as a fake, Pandis recomments "caution with this unverified badge" – (we´re talking about the ones with the backplate with the sharp edges on the hinge-well here - where the other Poellaths are sloped more softly at the edges.)
Thanks to Mario´s nice macro-shot of the crown and bow I see a lot of unclean details that do not support your view of a quality “absolutely astounding and easily rivaling the finest Juncker badges” - and I don´t think these are traces of wear…
Regarding the enamel parts – I really don´t know whether they are original or not…it´s just pictures and hard to tell.
But I don´t think it´s that hilarious to imagine someone either doing a repair or a change on the pennants. Enamel repair can be done by jewelers or silversmiths, and even I can poke away a halfway decent pennant of a fake badge and put it on an original badge… (I think….I haven´t done it…so far…)

And now, as we say in Germany: “Wer “A” sagt, muß auch “B” sagen” (british: “In for a penny, in for a pound”)
If two of the major books on this topic classify an observer badge with this special (sharp edge hinge-well) backplate as dubious or fake –
what does that possibly tell us about a pilot badge with the identical backplate?
Marko obviously asked some german experts (I wish he would have told us their names - maybe he decides to do so later?) and they gave a “thumbs down” for the badge.
Even Stephen (no pun intended…) concedes :

“…I can say with confidence this is a derivative of a Pollath badge (is it a cast, I cannot tell from the materials I had), and as I examined the anomalies (which I point out in a side-by-side of the plane) I am still not convinced this is a reproduction. I would submit that even if one half of the brain likes the badge, that is a 50-50 split of one's own personal opinion. My good friends here and I have have discussed this badge without conclusion.”

I personally do not like the badge – the pictures show the areas of my concern – but I´m only an “expert” (quotationmarks by courtesy of Kaiser´s Bunker).

But it´s really not that important: What I think…

And, to be frank: It´s not important either, what you think (or thought, when you were buying the badges)

When it comes to selling these specimens again, it´s important what all the others think!

- and they use the same sources of information I use – and Mario will only see a fraction of the money, that he spent, again!

I´m sorry for this lengthy post, but I felt that I had to explain my point of view more thoroughly...

Regards
Hagrid
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File Type: jpg poellath mario krone.jpg (174.4 KB, 127 views)
File Type: jpg Pöllath maio Schleife.jpg (228.4 KB, 127 views)
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:18 PM   #32
Hagrid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary B View Post
According to Tony it of 2 piece construction so, if he is correct, your statement that it is a solid cast fake is a flawed observation.

Gary B
OK - let me put it this way:
If Tony´s two-piece-badge and Pandis´ cast examples look alike (check the scratch-marks - they do not belong to the design, they are custom-made!) ...

Then I don´t want to have this badge.
And probably nobody else want´s to have it.
So Mario will not be able to sell it again !

(This was one of his main concerns when starting this thread...)

Besides: Scratch-marks are always made after the badge is sold, mostly by the new owner to personalize his precious. Do you know a company that produces pre-scratched badges?
Or do you think that, once upon a time, there was this guy around - scratching his triangles into several quadrat pilots badges (two, at least: Mario's and the one the cast mould was taken of...)?

Regards
Hagrid

Last edited by Hagrid; 09-27-2017 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 09-27-2017, 06:49 PM   #33
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thanks to all contributors, I keep following the thread with interest.
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Old 09-27-2017, 07:26 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagrid View Post
OK - let me put it this way:
If Tony´s two-piece-badge and Pandis´ cast examples look alike (check the scratch-marks - they do not belong to the design, they are custom-made!) ...

Then I don´t want to have this badge.
And probably nobody else want´s to have it.
So Mario will not be able to sell it again !

(This was one of his main concerns when starting this thread...)

Besides: Scratch-marks are always made after the badge is sold, mostly by the new owner to personalize his precious. Do you know a company that produces pre-scratched badges?
Or do you think that, once upon a time, there was this guy around - scratching his triangles into several quadrat pilots badges (two, at least: Mario's and the one the cast mould was taken of...)?

Regards
Hagrid
What scratch marks are you referring to? The ones on the front of the Pandis badges? If so they are not personalized initials or company maker marks, they are just what they are, scratches. In the case of the Pandis badges they are copies of scratches in the original badge the mold was made from. Again the Pandis badges are quite crude and obviously one piece castings. I do not have Tony's badge in hand so must take his word that his is a 2 piece badge. As such the badge is not like the 2 you show from Pandis' book. An in hand inspection is, IMO warranted, before a judgement can be made, especially when comparing it to the pictures (which are not the best) from the Pandis book.

Gary B
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Last edited by Gary B; 09-27-2017 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:36 AM   #35
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Hi Gary!
Since right now you are the only one taking part in this discussion (which is pretty important IMO), allow me some remarks on your last post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary B View Post
What scratch marks are you referring to? The ones on the front of the Pandis badges? If so they are not personalized initials or company maker marks, they are just what they are, scratches. In the case of the Pandis badges they are copies of scratches in the original badge the mold was made from.
I agree with you! Some random scratches (plus the known die-flaw of the late Quadrat badges), although I assume the scribbling under the Taube could be something personalized ("W" -shaped with a backstroke). And you are right in another point: "Mold" should be written without an "u"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary B View Post
I do not have Tony's badge in hand so must take his word that his is a 2 piece badge. As such the badge is not like the 2 you show from Pandis' book.
You are right again: There´s no reason we not do believe in Tony´s description...
That opens the possibility, that Pandis description is not exact and he had the same variant: Cast front, backed with a brass plate (see the testing-scratches on Pandis left piece and Mario´s reverse !), That could explain the implausible range of their weights, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary B View Post
An in hand inspection is, IMO warranted, before a judgement can be made, especially when comparing it to the pictures (which are not the best) from the Pandis book.
You are right, again! Nothing tops a thorough "hand job", but for this the pictures must do...
- I tried to do better shots and put it together with an original for comparison.
- I coloured the scratch-patterns so everyone can see, what I´m talking about.
- I did the colouring on Mario´s badge as well, because the traces are harder to see on his. As a bonus I circled the areas, that IMO yell "cast!" at you at first sight (If you check Mario´s close-up of the bow you will see that in the lower area of the center even a part is missing!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary B View Post
Again the Pandis badges are quite crude and obviously one piece castings.
I agree with you again - crude and cast they are (maybe no longer one-piece...) - and so is Mario´s!

The two piece construction makes sense: Whether you use a galvano (possible too!) or a casting technique - you´re always lacking a proper reverse, especially if you don´t want to destroy the hardware setup of your original. Easy way to solder a plain backplate on the flat reverse of your fake and equip it with some homemade pin... (that´s what they actually look like to me!)

Regards
Hagrid
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File Type: jpg Da scratch.jpg (158.1 KB, 110 views)
File Type: jpg mario.jpg (110.7 KB, 111 views)

Last edited by Hagrid; 09-28-2017 at 03:56 AM.
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:53 AM   #36
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...and to make clear, why I think this badge is not good, I put the picture of the Taube from an original late Quadrat badge next to Mario´s picture.
I think this comparison is pretty convincing -
the loss off thickness of the struts, lack of detail and overall sharpness plus some cast flaws are speaking for themselves!

The last point I would like to emphasize is:
We are talking here about the undisputed typical front design for pilot badges of the Quadrat maker, a well known quality manufacturer on the same level as Juncker and Meybauer i.e.
How big is the chance that they, at any given time of their existence, delivered such a crude deviation (especially of the hardware) from their usual high standards? And why?

Think about it

Regards
Hagrid
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Old 09-28-2017, 10:06 AM   #37
Gary B
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Hagrid,

Very good pictures and analysis!

I sold most of my Imperial Avn badges years ago due to such controversies...is it Klaus or Claus or Pollath or Poellath...crown/moon/800 or moon/800....ray back or flat etc etc.

I kept a few, which are pictured in Previtera's books and on the forum but now only stick with "textbook" pieces.

Just like SS insignia, when you start discussing variants and one-offs it is difficult to get 100% consensus.

Gary B
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Old 09-28-2017, 05:12 PM   #38
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Thanks again for the comments.
I must say Wow! What a brainstorm experience !

I love these things but if l ever suspected how tough it is to collect
Them ..l would have stick to scale modelling
Guess l should look for a hands on vetting by some professionals
To have some more enlightening to find out what l have
Thanks again
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Old 09-29-2017, 07:25 AM   #39
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...and strongly rely on what Tony told as will not abandon me in this confused thing !
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Old 09-29-2017, 07:56 AM   #40
Hagrid
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Hi Mario!
To provide you with arguments that might be helpful in that affair was my motivation for these excessive and lengthy posting frenzy
I was hoping for more participants to enrich the discussion, though...
Regards
Hagrid
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Old 09-29-2017, 02:27 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagrid View Post
Hi Mario!
To provide you with arguments that might be helpful in that affair was my motivation for these excessive and lengthy posting frenzy
I was hoping for more participants to enrich the discussion, though...
Regards
Hagrid
I thought that Hagrid's posts were well thought out and on target as is usual for him. I'm not the strongest on these Bavarian versions but I know that good copies have been around since the 70s at least as I saw them then. I will also say that the badge weight is very important with all of these German flight badges and I will rarely buy one without knowing the weight.

Some cast can be as clear as struck examples but weight will not be the same, the cast being heavier
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