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Old 09-24-2017, 01:51 PM   #16
mario1
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:02 PM   #17
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design of the non textbook one looks quite textbook Quadrat/dillenius to me.
Maybe a period reworked back issue piece?
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:23 PM   #18
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Thank you for the better pictures - cast flaws all over the place...
Now it's clearly visible the badge is a solid cast fake of an original Quadrat badge:
They all have a telltale scratch pattern under the "Taube" - the attempt to remove it in you example was not completely succesful.
I hope you can give it back!
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:32 PM   #19
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....lot of good news thanks ! :-)....so out of these four the only one to sleep well with is the Juncker observer? Any other input?
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Old 09-24-2017, 03:07 PM   #20
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I would not condemn the bavarian pilot right away.
It has the trace of wear on the right spots ( under the "Taube", on the wreath).
It has nice details and superb craftmanship.
It has nice silver ("rainbow") patina.
It's shown as original in two of the important books on this topic.

I, too, would appreciate some other opinions...
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Old 09-24-2017, 03:25 PM   #21
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Hope that Marko shares his comments on that Bavarian ,too
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Old 09-25-2017, 12:48 PM   #22
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Dear Mario !

After my research about ˝second˝ variant of silver Bavarian Pilot badge by Karl Pöllath I get direct information from well known WW1 German Aviation collectors - experts that this badge I asked for opinion here on forum and the same badge like the badge from Imperial Sky book peage 410-411 its not textbook original war time period example but post ww2 well made repro.
Wrong details ( crown,wreath,plane,..) , producer mark behind, pin back,...

About other badges in this thread ,

-Observer bavarian its OK for me in my opinion only replaced ( repaired ) enameled part in front.

- Repro Prussian pilot badge

- Original Prussian Observer with replaced repro enameled part in front..

Best Regards
M
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Old 09-25-2017, 12:51 PM   #23
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many thanks also for your input ,Marko!
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Old 09-26-2017, 10:25 AM   #24
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no problem Mario !
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Old 09-27-2017, 10:43 AM   #25
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My desire was to stay out of this but I was asked to contribute, so I will.

I am not a fan of the collecting by "group think" and as I expected, like so many good items on the WAF "opinions" come from members who have never owned, touched, or seen an example before. Some members think all badges are copies and there is nothing to convince them otherwise. Then it will spiral downwards as participants in threads can convince each other anything is not original. Does not matter what the item is. Good original items become fakes by consensus. Seen it many times.

First off, I am just a collector like Mario, and if he feels that a flight badge he bought from me two years ago is a replica, even if I don't agree, I will not abandon him and we can fix it.

All these badges have been on my web site for use by collectors since 1998 HERE. I had traded/sold others, these were my favourites that I kept.

As far as the Bavarian badges, a Canadian collector serving in Germany in the early 1960s (who I knew very well, sadly deceased now) brought them back with tons of other items, just as I did in 1984. I obtained them around 1990 or so? So I owned them over 25+ years before selling them to Mario. The quality of these badges is absolutely astounding and easily rivals the finest Juncker badges; indiscernible soldering, perfect sharp details, microscopic (and I mean tiny) maker's stamp, and highest quality everything. If these were fakes, where are all the others over the decades? Stephen Previtera who has exceptional knowledgeable, chose to publish both Bavarian badges in his book Imperial Sky as perfect originals (and they are). He described on p.410 the Bayern pilot as "We begin the Poellath section with a variant: this example is rarer than those that follow. With its quality hardware, extra thick pin and detailed reverse, this is a likely candidate for a private purchase example. It's higher quality finish bears this out".

The "expert" who claimed in this thread that the Preußen Pilot was a cast fake, might want to know it is two-piece stamped brass that has been soldered together and it was silvered. I believe it to be 1930s made, but that is just my opinion. The Preußen pilot was posted on the WAF HERE in March 2003 and now its bad. Interesting.

The idea that the enamel has been changed on the Observers I find amusing. Where would someone get the flags, and this was done in the 1950s when no-one really cared about these badges? Come on.

So that is all I will say on this as I refuse to get into a debate which can often turn bloody, and for me, this is a hobby. I have no doubts about these badges and can trace them back decades. It has been a pleasure to own them.
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Old 09-27-2017, 11:23 AM   #26
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Regarding the Prussian pilot badge, several Luftwaffe badges made by GWL have been found with an "RC" over stamp. It is believed the RC stands for "Richard/Robert Conrad", a possible distributor of badges or subcontractor of badge manufacturer. So perhaps there is a link between the RC crown MM on the pin of this badge and those over stamped RC GWL badges.

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Old 09-27-2017, 01:21 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony & Kaiser View Post
My desire was to stay out of this but I was asked to contribute, so I will.
Hi Tony!
I´m glad you did - this honours you and is highly appreciated...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony & Kaiser View Post
First off, I am just a collector like Mario, and if he feels that a flight badge he bought from me two years ago is a replica, even if I don't agree, I will not abandon him and we can fix it.
This honours you even more...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony & Kaiser View Post
The "expert" who claimed in this thread that the Preußen Pilot was a cast fake ...
You were right assuming that I have "never owned, touched, or seen one of these badges" because all of the 20+ I own are doubtless original pieces (OK-maybe four or so are questionable...). The expertise I claim originates from the latest books on that issue (Previtera, Baldes, Pandis) and a lot of digging and sniffing on auctionsites and forums. Now I found this badge in Pandis book as a fake (see the quoted pictures) and the one in question here has the same telltale features - The scratchmark is not very clear, but it´s visible!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony & Kaiser View Post
So that is all I will say on this as I refuse to get into a debate which can often turn bloody, and for me, this is a hobby. I have no doubts about these badges and can trace them back decades. It has been a pleasure to own them.
Tony - there´s no need for bloodshed here, as we are all collectors! And I understand that you were happy and proud with the badges for the time you had them. But I also understand that many old collections have been compromised, especially in Germany during the 70ies, with high quality fakes (remember Count Klenau?). Nowadays, as information and research have increased some notches, it turns out to be difficult to stick to some of the older dogmas.
Especially when it comes to selling, things financially might go awfully awry (as Mario rightfully fears).
And YES - it is a hobby (but an expensive one )
Regards
Hagrid
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Old 09-27-2017, 01:34 PM   #28
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Hagrid,

The 2 pictured in Pandis' book are clearly cast and are quite crude. Although they might share the same features of the badge pictured by Mario they are not in the same category at all in terms of quality. As Tony has stated his was a 2 piece brass badge.

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Old 09-27-2017, 01:52 PM   #29
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Come on, Gary!
The same clumsy hardware, the same scratch-marks -
I think there's just only one reasonable explanation for that: they originate from the same source...
...maybe made out of different material.

Regards
Hagrid

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Old 09-27-2017, 02:08 PM   #30
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According to Tony it of 2 piece construction so, if he is correct, your statement that it is a solid cast fake is a flawed observation.

Gary B
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