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Nice little ribbon bar
Old 10-09-2017, 03:16 PM   #1
Valter Gorenc
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Default Nice little ribbon bar

This little bar arrived today. Never mind it's salty, I like it that way. What are the awards? Between EK2 and Hindy I see (think) Sachse-Weimar-Eisenach Order of white falcon - what grade? And then something from Sachsen-Coburg -Gotha and Schwarzburg - Ehrenkreuz 2nd or 3rd class with swords. Can anyone pin them more precisely?

What person/unit could it be? I found those states combined in 7. Thüringisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 96 or maybe Infanterie-Regiment Großherzog von Sachsen (5. Thüringisches) Nr. 94? Can it be tracable to certain person?

Thanks in advance for any help and comments!
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Old 10-10-2017, 03:58 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valter Gorenc View Post
This little bar arrived today. Never mind it's salty, I like it that way. What are the awards? Between EK2 and Hindy I see (think) Sachse-Weimar-Eisenach Order of white falcon - what grade? And then something from Sachsen-Coburg -Gotha and Schwarzburg - Ehrenkreuz 2nd or 3rd class with swords. Can anyone pin them more precisely?

What person/unit could it be? I found those states combined in 7. Thüringisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 96 or maybe Infanterie-Regiment Großherzog von Sachsen (5. Thüringisches) Nr. 94? Can it be tracable to certain person?

Thanks in advance for any help and comments!
Very, very nice bar.

IMO the first "Land"-medal after the EKII always is from the area where the owner is from - so in this case SWE. The red ribbon is from the Order of the White Falcon but the grade can not be established from it - anything from RK 1st class to the silver merit cross. However as the swords device has a crown on it and the merit crosses as far as I know were not awarded with a crown it is more likely a ribbon for the RK first or second class.
The third ribbon is IMO not from SCG but from Sachsen-Meiningen: Ehrenzeichen fuer Verdienste im Kriege am Kaempferband with the swords being a 1930s addition to the ribbon.
The fourth ribbon is also IMO from SR (or possibly SS or SSR) and could be from Fuerstlich Schwarzburgisches Ehrenkreuz (2nd,3rd,4th class but also Goldene und Silberne Ehrenmedaille but also Silberne Medaille fuer Verdienst im Kriege) with the swords possibly being a 1930s addition to the ribbon (the swords themselves seem to be of 1930s manufacturing). If however the order of the white falcon is indeed a RK 1st or 2nd class than a corresponding grade from SR would make that a FSE 2nd, 3rd or 4th class (someone might know how the grades of both these orders (white falcon and FSE) corresponded with each other).

Based on the above I assume the ribbon bar is for a junior reserve officer (reserve due to the fact that there is no long service medal, officer due to the RKs being awarded to officers only and IMO officers where more likely to receive corresponding orders from other states than non-officers, junior based on the idea that a more senior officer would have been a career officer and therefore would have a long service ribbon). As for the unit - again based on the above - it would be most likely a SWE unit which would mean IR 94.

If you have a ranklist from 1914-18 just look for junior reserve officers in IR 94 who servived the war and you will probably find a couple of names to match.
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Last edited by kaiserwilhelm2; 10-10-2017 at 04:42 AM.
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Old 10-10-2017, 05:34 AM   #3
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Kaiser, thank you very much for very detailed explanation! I really appreciate that! I'll try to get Rangliste and follow your advice.
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Old 10-14-2017, 06:01 PM   #4
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The third ribbon is not the Sachsen-Meiningen Ehrenkreuz. It is the Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach General Honor Decoration with Clasp and Swords (Ghzgl. Sächs. Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen mit Bandschnalle und Schwertern). The swords look silver; is that correct? A combination of the White Falcon and the General Honor Decoration is typically found among Leutnants/Leutnants der Reserve promoted during the war, who would have received the General Honor Decoration as a Fähnrich (if active) or as an NCO or enlisted man (typically in silver as an Unteroffizier der Reserve or Vizefeldwebel der Reserve). So a 1914 rank list will not be of help.

The fourth ribbon is that of the Fürstlich Schwarzburgisches Ehrenkreuz, but as noted above, the Silberne Medaille für Verdienst im Kriege (SKM) used the same ribbon and the ribbon is often seen with swords. It is most definitely not a 2nd Class, as with one notable exception (an Oberlt.d.L. who was a Prussian Hofrat and received swords to a peacetime 2nd Class), all awards of the 2nd Class were to Oberstleutnants/Majore or their equivalents. The 4th Class with Swords was primarily awarded to Feldwebelleutnants and Offizier-Stellevertreter and their equivalents (Unterärzte, for example).

So, with the Sachsen-Weimar awards, the most likely case is an Ehrenkreuz 3rd Class (SEK3X) to a Leutnant/Leutnant der Reserve, or an SKM to an NCO. Although, technically, it could be both. Until late in the war, if one already had the SKM, Schwarzburg did consider you for the award of the Ehrenkreuz, as you already had your award from the principalities. This changed in 1918, and several Leutnants received an Ehrenkreuz in place of their earlier SKM.

Because of these factors, a definite ID is unlikely, but there are a few candidates. Among these are:

• Busch, _____; GSF3bX (1916) and SEK3X (13.1.17) as a Lt.d.L.-Kav. and Ord.Offz. IR 96. The name is too common to and nothing further is known about him, but given that he was not in a Sachsen-Weimar unit when he received the White Falcon, he was probably a native of the Grand Duchy.
• Collenbusch, Adolf; SEK3X (5.10.17) as a Lt.d.R. (5.4.17), IR 71; *22.8.1887 in Schloßvippach, Weimar, Landwirt ebenda. The Sachsen-Weimar rolls are incomplete, so I do not know if he received the GSF3bX, but he was a native of the Grand Duchy and received the General Honor Decoration in Silver in 1917.
• Ortweiler, Willy; SEK3X (2.9.18) as a Lt.d.R., IR 71; *13.2.1898 in Weimar, Schüler ebd.; native of the Grand Duchy, so likely an award, but as noted above, the rolls are incomplete.
• Straubel, Ernst; GSF3bX (ohne Datum), SEK3X (18.9.16) as a Lt.d.R., IR 96; born in Apolda, SWE, Postassistent in Neustadt am Rennsteig, Schwarzburg-Sondershausen.
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Old 10-15-2017, 03:11 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Danner View Post
The third ribbon is not the Sachsen-Meiningen Ehrenkreuz. It is the Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach General Honor Decoration with Clasp and Swords (Ghzgl. Sächs. Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen mit Bandschnalle und Schwertern).

The fourth ribbon, the most likely case is an Ehrenkreuz 3rd Class (SEK3X).
Agreed. As for the third ribbon I am still thrown off by the fact that the green lines are not continuous hence my preference for Sachsen Meiningen but then again there is not any white visible on the ribbon so I will agree with the SWE Allg Ehrenzeichen assessment.

Interesting to see all these natives of SWE serving as officers outside the SWE regiment IR 94 which, come to think of it, is not that strange as SWE with about 400.000 inhabitants at the time probably had an excess of officers, at least more than were needed for just one regiment.
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Last edited by kaiserwilhelm2; 10-15-2017 at 03:18 AM.
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Old 10-15-2017, 07:37 AM   #6
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Dave, thank you VERY much for your explanation and your generous help with possible recipients! I' amazed with your knowledge and willingness to help.

Yes, SWE swords are (tarnished) silver, as well as Schwarzburg, and Hindenburg cross swords are gold - the difference is clearly seen.
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Old 10-15-2017, 07:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiserwilhelm2 View Post
Agreed. As for the third ribbon I am still thrown off by the fact that the green lines are not continuous hence my preference for Sachsen Meiningen but then again there is not any white visible on the ribbon so I will agree with the SWE Allg Ehrenzeichen assessment.

Interesting to see all these natives of SWE serving as officers outside the SWE regiment IR 94 which, come to think of it, is not that strange as SWE with about 400.000 inhabitants at the time probably had an excess of officers, at least more than were needed for just one regiment.
I too find it strange that the SWE contingent was never increased beyond the one regiment. With a population of 417,000 in the 1910 census, SWE was between Oldenburg (483,000) and Anhalt (331,000) in size. Oldenburg was responsible for one infantry and one cavalry regiment and two field artillery batteries. Anhalt nominally had just the one infantry regiment (IR 93), but a battalion of FR 36 was also based there.

Another thing of note was that IR 94 was a rather elitist regiment. Of 53 regimental officers in the 1914 rank list, only four were non-noble. By contrast, IR 71 was 51 commoners out of 60 and IR 96 was 43 out of 55. IR 95's officer corps was almost evenly divided between nobles and commoners. So a member of the SWE bourgeoisie seeking an active commission in the Prussian Army would likely be advised to go elsewhere. IR 94's reserve officers were all commoners, although some like Paul de Chapeaurouge came from fairly prominent bourgeois families. Even during the war, when commoners flooded into the army, IR 94's active officer corps remained noble, commissioning only one or two commoners as Leutnants. And two of the prewar commoners were killed early in the war - Walther Ohnesorg was killed in 1914 and Fritz Weise in 1915 (and neither were from SWE - Ohnesorg was a Prussian and Weise was a Saxe-Altenburger).

The other main active regiments with a SWE connection were FAR 19 and FAR 55, whose recruiting area covered parts of the Grand Duchy, and HR 12. In the case of HR 12, this was not due to recruiting, as would-be SWE cavalrymen would probably more likely end up in JRzP 2 or JRzP 6. Rather, the Grand Duke was Chef of HR 12, so officers of the regiment received the White Falcon similar to the way officers of IR 47 received Bavarian decorations.
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Old 10-16-2017, 03:05 AM   #8
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Hi Dave,

Thanks for again a very knowledgeable post. I do enjoy reading your contributions.
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Old 10-16-2017, 11:58 AM   #9
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Very interesting post, Kaiser! I like the bar even more with these remarkable facts in mind.
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