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Old 04-28-2011, 03:16 PM   #46
Shaun Winkler
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Gefechtsbericht from 17.06.1942 is on page: 242 !

other one on page: 217


Well if this is the case then that proves the one in Tates book is a fake.

I hope someone can post a picture of it from Walter Wübbe book .

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Tate
Old 04-28-2011, 06:00 PM   #47
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Well, I think the signing as Leutnant when he wasn't actually one points to WalterB's as a clear fake. Then, we have the signature issues. So if we look at the one in the Tate book, it is very likely a fake and now FrankandFrank has pretty much proven this. tate did not know, like many of us, that it could be a fake. It looks real.

Shaun, please post any other combat reports you have. I think, like me with my photo, you are going to have to bite the bullet and accept your reports as fake. Even though you mention the dealer may be reputable, THEY DO NOT KNOW A FAKE FROM A REAL ONE ANYMORE. We have pretty much shown on this thread that the majority of Marseille out there are FAKE. Punched holes and numbers etc do not make for an original signature. Fakers are very good at what they do, particularly in producing the sigs, but FrankandFrank can point to simple errors in the text, and my own basic research on WalterB's shows a key error. Once one document is shown to be fake, other items which carry the same signature or format on clipping, photo or combat report must be FAKE.

It's the same old story - dealers and many collectors now believe the fake Marseille signature to be the original because the market has been flooded with them. Before I bought my 'Marseille' I looked around and saw similar signatures so I thought, yeah, this is what his signature is like, so I bought one. I was fooled by the very fact that there were many fakes going around that as a collector I thought them to be originals.

I am pretty sure others who have monitored this thread are probably going to have a fake Marseille in their collection - we have at least 10 on here already. I hope we see some more real Marseilles posted here so we can see examples of a real signature on reports, photos, and clippings.

Just to throw a curly one into the discussion, look at this postcard with the printed sig at the bottom. It's a double fake in my opinion as we know for sure that fake Hoffmann's exist and this could be another example of a similarly faked card plus the fake Marseille sig. If the card is genuine, what then?? But I don't believe it is. I don't have this card in my possession so I can't check the authenticity of the card itself.
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Free Kurowski
Old 04-28-2011, 06:41 PM   #48
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A slight diversion:

Kurowski's book on Marseille is available to read online at:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/39975274/G...-Marseille-Ocr
 

Old 04-28-2011, 09:06 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
Well, I think the signing as Leutnant when he wasn't actually one points to WalterB's as a clear fake. Then, we have the signature issues. So if we look at the one in the Tate book, it is very likely a fake and now FrankandFrank has pretty much proven this. tate did not know, like many of us, that it could be a fake. It looks real.

Shaun, please post any other combat reports you have. I think, like me with my photo, you are going to have to bite the bullet and accept your reports as fake. Even though you mention the dealer may be reputable, THEY DO NOT KNOW A FAKE FROM A REAL ONE ANYMORE. We have pretty much shown on this thread that the majority of Marseille out there are FAKE. Punched holes and numbers etc do not make for an original signature. Fakers are very good at what they do, particularly in producing the sigs, but FrankandFrank can point to simple errors in the text, and my own basic research on WalterB's shows a key error. Once one document is shown to be fake, other items which carry the same signature or format on clipping, photo or combat report must be FAKE.

It's the same old story - dealers and many collectors now believe the fake Marseille signature to be the original because the market has been flooded with them. Before I bought my 'Marseille' I looked around and saw similar signatures so I thought, yeah, this is what his signature is like, so I bought one. I was fooled by the very fact that there were many fakes going around that as a collector I thought them to be originals.

I am pretty sure others who have monitored this thread are probably going to have a fake Marseille in their collection - we have at least 10 on here already. I hope we see some more real Marseilles posted here so we can see examples of a real signature on reports, photos, and clippings.

Just to throw a curly one into the discussion, look at this postcard with the printed sig at the bottom. It's a double fake in my opinion as we know for sure that fake Hoffmann's exist and this could be another example of a similarly faked card plus the fake Marseille sig. If the card is genuine, what then?? But I don't believe it is. I don't have this card in my possession so I can't check the authenticity of the card itself.
.


Jeremy, I suggest that you check your sources again. Marseille WAS a Leutenant on 15.2.42. According to Wubbe's book, here was Marseille's ranks and dates:


7 November 1938: Flieger
13 March 1939: Fahnenjunker
1 May 1939: Fahnenjunker-Gefreiter
1 July 1939: Fahnenjunker-Unteroffizier
1 November 1939: Fähnrich
1 March 1941: Oberfähnrich
1 April 1941: Leutnant (promoted on 16 June 1941, but effective as of 1 April 1941)
1 April 1942: Oberleutnant (promoted on 8 May 1942, but effective as of 1 April 1942)
1 September 1942: Hauptmann (promoted on 19 September 1942, but effective as of 1 September 1942)

Source: Hauptmann Hans Joachim Marseille Ein Jagdfliegerschicksal in Daten, Bildern und Dokumenten (in German). Schnellbach, Germany: Verlag Siegfried Bublies, 2001, page 43.

Thank you Shaun, for your input. I won't throw away the Marseille document just yet.
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Last edited by WalterB; 04-28-2011 at 09:16 PM.
 

Dates
Old 04-28-2011, 10:55 PM   #50
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Thanks for that info WaterB.

Kurowski does give the promotion date to Leutnant as 22.2.42 (see page 220), but Kitchens and Beaman (page 10) give it as 16.06.41 as Wubbe does.

I am more inclined to follow the later two publications, so, yes, no need to throw away your combat reports yet (not that I have ever suggested that to you or Shaun or that we have reached a definitive conclusion regarding Marseille fakes in this thread, anyway, that would cause you to do that, just as I am not burning my Marseille photo yet). But I am loathe to disagree with Max and Ralf, and another knowledgeable collector/dealer who agrees with their views.

Do you have a copy of Wubbe and are there any photos combat reports in there? If so, please post. Also, does your combat report concur with info given in Wubbe?
 

Old 04-29-2011, 09:50 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
Do you have a copy of Wubbe and are there any photos combat reports in there? If so, please post. Also, does your combat report concur with info given in Wubbe?
Hi Jeremy, no, unfortunately I do not have a copy of the book. I only had a description of his victories and dates of promotion.
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Another
Old 04-29-2011, 10:20 PM   #52
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Here's another clipping with extensive text.

I can understand that a clipping for HJ would have a sig on the bottom for a pic to be added (or a drawing by Trudgian or Taylor 60 years later ) but why would anyone write so much text from the middle of the page ?

Also, all these ones dated when Marseille was in Africa, were they sent back to Germany from Africa after being requested by HJ or whoever?? Within Germany I could understand, but while engaged in an air war in Africa and The Med?? The clippings typically are in pristine condition too...

Still scratching my head over this thread, so just some thoughts related to the clippings of the kind Ralf states are fake...

Any opinions??

Appreciate any PMs if you dont want to post on the thread about this topic...
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Old 04-30-2011, 01:09 PM   #53
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Hello all,

As promised here are a couple more "Marseille signatures" for our growing reference library! This clipping came from our litigation enthusiast.
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File Type: jpg clipping1.jpg (30.7 KB, 780 views)
File Type: jpg clipping2.jpg (37.7 KB, 782 views)
 

Old 04-30-2011, 01:10 PM   #54
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and this Hoffmann from a well known dealer in the UK.
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File Type: jpg marseilleHoffmann2.jpg (61.7 KB, 800 views)
 

Old 05-02-2011, 08:54 AM   #55
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...as I stated in a previous comment, at the end they all come from one source in germany.
The name of the dealer was already mentioned in this thread.

Gents, this is getting BIG!
 

Marseille
Old 05-02-2011, 03:30 PM   #56
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Indeed, many fakes of Marseille are in circulation, one more elaborate than the other. The one in Jeremy´s post I passed on a few months ago.

In order to raise morale it is maybe time for an original private dedicated portrait of Marseille. I covered and cropped some of it. Partially in order to not provide fodder for the fakers partially because it is very personal in nature.



 

Marseille BS
Old 05-03-2011, 04:36 AM   #57
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Thanks WFW - that's great. I note the general condition, ink, and style of your Marseille compared to the Hoffmanns and clippings which come from the BS sig factory.

I agree that we run the risk of forgers using this thread to smarten up. But at least we may be able to limit the cost to collectors (including myself) or make us more informed and careful about all the Marseille crap going around. We might help some of the better dealers be a bit more discerning about what they sell, too.

For those of you who need a laugh, check this one out (you will need to register to see it).

https://www.history-shop.de/katalog/...als_52533.html
 

Another laugh
Old 05-05-2011, 05:48 AM   #58
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Default Another laugh

Here's a further laugh...

http://cgi.ebay.de/Autogramm-Hans-Jo...item1c1b6fb88b

My guess is Marseille had a bit of spare time between sorties and was signing this clipping when a giraffe walked by and he thought he would do a quick sketch. Marseille giraffe sketches are extremely rare, so a certain dealer would probably say, one who is willing to provide a CofA! In any case, another BS sig on a clipping...
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File Type: jpg Marseille giraffe 1.jpg (14.8 KB, 665 views)
File Type: jpg Marseille Giraffe.jpg (20.6 KB, 672 views)
 

Old 05-05-2011, 01:59 PM   #59
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Seems like Jochen was very busy signing on September 9th
 

Originals
Old 05-09-2011, 07:03 AM   #60
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Here are the first of the scans from Wubbe. Sorry, best that can be done but sufficient for the purpose. I'll leave it to each individual to compare various features of the sigs. Apart from WJW's private photo, everything else on this thread is fake IMHO. I expect Max and Ralf will agree with this. Of course, we cannot be 100% sure of the Wubbe sigs, but I suspect they are authentic...

In his book, Wubbe states that postcards with a facsimile sig were posted out to requests for Marseille autographs as Marseille was to busy during the latter months of his life fighting an air war. He was very stressed out from combat at that time and very unlikely to produce nice little letters or pretty clippings - this book is a must for any Marseille collector.

As I said elsewhere, it goes beyond how well the sigs match, however. A skilled forger can do a good job, but they are just copies. The clippings are BS and so are the combat reports (Ralf has proven this) and Hoffmanns, all in perfect condition, lovely clean sigs (note the quick Marseille combat report sig) signed in the same ink and identical sig features which set them apart from authentic material.

There are very very very few authentic Marseille, and a thriving forgery industry. I paid a lot of money for my Hoffmann from Mr. Litigation, and as I said, it came with a CofA - a useless document. I hope others who own what are almost certainly fakes won't take the path of trying to sell on these fakes, despite the monetary loss.

I welcome any opinions...
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File Type: jpg combat report 17 jun 1942.jpg (209.4 KB, 634 views)
File Type: jpg marseille erinnerungsurkunde.jpg (221.9 KB, 631 views)
 
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