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2. Pz.Div. Group with some questions
Old 07-09-2019, 04:50 PM   #1
Archi
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Default 2. Pz.Div. Group with some questions

Hello !

I am hoping for some help or any comments on this interesting group, related to a signal soldier,
always serving in 1./Pz.Nachr.Abt. 38 (phone co.) of 2. Pz.Div.

The group consists of (with my first guesses on the signatures) :
- Award doc for EK II, dated 15.4.1942 (in theory it should be Gen.Maj. Freiherr Hans-Karl von Esebeck, is it ?!)
- Sturmabzeichen, dated 23.5.1942 [signature on the bottom left could be Major Günter Seeck, is it ?!]
- VWA (schwarz) for a wounding on 20.8.1944 [Kdr. should be Hptm. Stahl at that time ?! signature looks different ...]
- KVK II m. Schw., dated 15.11.1944 [should be Gen.Maj. Henning Schönfeld, is it ?!]

- In addition, there is a nice photo of him, dated February 1941, showing him already as Gefreiter
(The writing on the photo says :
"Meinen lieben zwei Beiden in herzlicher Liebe gewidmet im Februar 1941. Pappi"
Dedicated to both of my loved ones with passionate love, in Feb. 1941, Daddy)

I have the following questions :
1.) Regarding the award docs : I assume all are legit, but I have not seen this type of Sturmabzeichen document,
which is formally signed by the Div.Kdr., but actually only by the Abt.Kdr. (size is large, ~DIN A 4, double size of the other ones.)

2.) Regarding the signatures : Who signed ? Any correction/information would be helpful !

3.) Regarding the actions :
a.) 1942 : I assume, that the EK II and Sturmabzeichen are related to the actions in winter 1941/42 near Karmanowo/ SE of Rshev ?!
b.) 1944 : The VWA (schwarz) could be related to the breakout of the Falaise pocket ?
c.) 1944 : KIA date is 17.12.1944 : I think it is likely, that he was KIA during the first days of the "Battle of the Bulge".
I think that 2. Pz.Div. started the attack near Dasburg. Has anybody further information, where it was on 17.12.44 ?
https://www.volksbund.de/graebersuch...4aecae9554689b

4.) Regarding his early career :
I would like to make an assumption on his early career: When was he drafted and would he have participated in France 1940 ?!
From a "brute force" approach, one could assume, that it took him 6 months from Funker to Oberfunker and another 6 month,
to become Gefreiter.
Then he would have been drafted in February 1940 (or before) and might have participated in France. (is this a reasonable idea ?).

Any other comments or other input are welcome !

Thanks and best regards,

Archi

=====================

First the award docs for Russia :
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Hieber_EK_2_April_1942.jpg (56.4 KB, 166 views)
File Type: jpg Hieber_allg_Sturmabz_Mai_1942.jpg (38.2 KB, 167 views)
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:54 PM   #2
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-----

Here the award docs related to the Western front in 1944 :
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Hieber_VWA_schwarz_Aug_1944.jpg (68.6 KB, 166 views)
File Type: jpg Hieber_KVK_2_Nov_1944.jpg (58.4 KB, 168 views)
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Old 07-09-2019, 05:03 PM   #3
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-----------
Finally a photo of him from February 1941 and a summary of his career/awards :

Any comments are welcome !

Thanks in advance,

Archi
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Group_Hieber_photo_Feb_1941.jpg (35.5 KB, 164 views)
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Old 07-09-2019, 05:24 PM   #4
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Uwe, that is a fascinating group of a soldier who has seen various battlefields over the years! Very sad ending of his career though...

As you said, the 2. Panzer started near Dasburg during the Ardennes battles, flanked by the 116. Panzer to the north and the Panzer-Lehr to the south. It saw action right in the heart of the "Bulge". In the early morning of December 17th, the Division reached the area of Clervaux. Panzergrenadiers of the Division attacked and destroyed a battery of US-fieldartillery (presumably belonging to the 28th US Infantry Division) about five kilometres north of the town at 5am that day.

This information I could find on the fast. I´ll have a proper look tomorrow.
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:15 AM   #5
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Nice set. With regards to the signatures I would agree with who they are with the exception of the VWA. It is signed by the Abteilungsführer, not Kommandeur, so it is someone holding the position on a temporary basis. It looks like it says Scholz.
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Old 07-10-2019, 09:13 AM   #6
Lionel H.
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Hi Uwe. Nice set, tks for sharing. Concerning the signatures, you are right concerning GM Henning Schoenfeld, Major Seeck. BWB is, I agree with Kevin, a certain Hptm Scholz, probably a Unit Führer for a short time. The E.K.II is more sursprisin, it should be "v.Esebeck", but it is not, I am searching in other directions, seems the last letters are "bichl", I am lokking for you.

PM : I will answxer your mail, still working this week, I have some holydays - and more time - next week
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Old 07-10-2019, 09:57 AM   #7
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Very nice set, you bought it before I had the chance too! I have a unit history on the 2. Panzer at home, I’ll take a look through it and get back to you.


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Old 07-10-2019, 10:18 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel H. View Post
.. The E.K.II is more sursprisin, it should be "v.Esebeck", but it is not, I am searching in other directions, seems the last letters are "bichl", I am lokking for you.

...
Believe it or not, that is Hans-Karl von Esebeck's signature.
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Old 07-10-2019, 11:04 AM   #9
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Hello to all !

Many thanks to all for your contributions and interesting input !

@Matthias : Many thanks, any further info would be great !

@stickfigure : Thanks for your offer ! It would be nice to know the author. (I have the history by Franz Josef Strauss,
but am looking for alternatives.)

@hucks and Lionel :
As my capabilities in "reading signatures" is only topped by "identifying portraits" of famous generals ,
I didnt't bother to search for comparisons. To me, the EK 2 signature looked total different than Esebeck,
especially the first letter.
But after looking into various sources, all agree that Veiel left on ~ 15.2.42 (even confirmed by a daily order from him)
and was immediately followed by von Esebeck.

Therefore I tried a search on the forum and found the following link :
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...90&postcount=4
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hlight=Esebeck
As at that time, von Esebeck was Kdr. of 11. Pz.Div. and the signature looks very similar to me.
I assume all fits together now and no need to search for another in between Kdr. of 2. Pz.Division.

My guess : Perhaps the signature starts with Fr von and only from the middle onward I could imagine Esebeck ?!

Anyway many thanks to all for the help .
If someone could make a try on the other questions, especially the locations, I would appreciate it !

Thanks and best regards,

Archi
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Old 07-10-2019, 11:36 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hucks216 View Post
Believe it or not, that is Hans-Karl von Esebeck's signature.
Appears really difficult to know, but I have sent an enquiry to the best general specialist I know, he also immediatly confirmed von Esebeck.
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Old 07-10-2019, 12:06 PM   #11
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Hello Lionel !

Many thanks for your effort on further researching this and finally clarifying it !

BTW, as nobody of you experts has referred to it yet :
This type of Sturmabzeichen document ( DIN A4 sized) and signed by the Abteilungs-Kdr.
seems to be very common ?!

Thanks for the help so far and any further comments !

Best regards,

Archi
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2. Pz.Div. Group with some questions
Old 07-10-2019, 12:19 PM   #12
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Default 2. Pz.Div. Group with some questions

Here’s a map of the Division’s battle lined from 12-16-1944 through 12-29-1944. Hope this helps
-Steve
P.S. It has some photos of Pz.Nachr. Abt.38, would you like me to attach them to the thread?




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Old 07-10-2019, 12:45 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archi View Post
Hello Lionel !

Many thanks for your effort on further researching this and finally clarifying it !

BTW, as nobody of you experts has referred to it yet :
This type of Sturmabzeichen document ( DIN A4 sized) and signed by the Abteilungs-Kdr.
seems to be very common ?!

Thanks for the help so far and any further comments !

Best regards,

Archi
These A4 award docs are neither very common nor rare. They are of course somebit harder to find than the classical A5 prints. They are usually dated 39-early 42. Some divisions get those prints, other not at all. From memory, they were widely used by 7th.PD., 4th PD, 32.I.D., and probably many more. This print also don't influence the financial value in any way.
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Old 07-10-2019, 01:48 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archi View Post
Hello Lionel !

Many thanks for your effort on further researching this and finally clarifying it !

BTW, as nobody of you experts has referred to it yet :
This type of Sturmabzeichen document ( DIN A4 sized) and signed by the Abteilungs-Kdr.
seems to be very common ?!

Thanks for the help so far and any further comments !

Best regards,

Archi
2.Pz also had the same variant for the Panzerkampfabzeichen.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1c Horn signed by Generalleutnant RUDOLF VEIEL.jpg (51.0 KB, 114 views)
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Old 07-10-2019, 01:55 PM   #15
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Hello !

@hucks : Thanks for all your help and that additional info !

@Lionel : Many thanks for the detailed explanation !

@stickfigure/Steve : Thanks for posting that map !
If you have any photos of Pz.Nachrichten-Abt. 38, it would be very nice to see them here !

Best regards,

Archi
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