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Commonality of parts between LL 1A1 and GSG9 Para Helmets?
Old 07-21-2019, 01:29 AM   #1
peregrinvs
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Default Commonality of parts between LL 1A1 and GSG9 Para Helmets?

Hi,

I have a lightly rusted and empty GSG9 helmet shell incoming that I’m intending to at least repaint and ideally fully restore.

First question: Are there any sources of separate liners, bolts or chinstrap assemblies for these?

I assume probably not, so...

Second question: Did the LL 1A1 para helmet use the same liners and bolts? They look externally similar in pictures, but I haven’t found a direct comparison of dismantled helmets. Yes, you guessed it - I was wondering if a scruffy / incomplete LL 1A1 could be a parts donor.

Third question: (apologies if it’s a stupid one) Did the LL 1A1 and GSG9 helmets have different shell + liners sizes as did the WWII helmets?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:21 PM   #2
Collectinsteve
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Hi Mark,

Everybody needs a restoration project or 10 to keep them out of trouble

I think you could make it work. The two do look very similar to each other in terms of the liner, the screw bolts, and the strap color. You won't get the chin cup with a BW helmet, but otherwise pretty close.

I think the main problem is going to be matching the sizes. Yes, the shells of both helmets come in different sizes. Which means you will need to find a BW helmet of the same size in the right condition at the right price.

Here's a small one for sale:

http://www.militaria-arsenal.de/BW-F...irmjaeger-Helm

Steve
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Old 07-25-2019, 07:19 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collectinsteve View Post
Hi Mark,

Everybody needs a restoration project or 10 to keep them out of trouble

I think you could make it work. The two do look very similar to each other in terms of the liner, the screw bolts, and the strap color. You won't get the chin cup with a BW helmet, but otherwise pretty close.

I think the main problem is going to be matching the sizes. Yes, the shells of both helmets come in different sizes. Which means you will need to find a BW helmet of the same size in the right condition at the right price.

Here's a small one for sale:

http://www.militaria-arsenal.de/BW-F...irmjaeger-Helm

Steve
Hi Steve,

In my case it's a restoration project or 20...

According to the seller, the shell measures about 68cm around the outside in line with the holes. Presumably I would need a size 60 or 61 liner? I suppose another approach might be to get a smaller one and then try and figure out a reversible way of fitting it to the larger shell as a place holder.

Cheers,
Mark
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Old 07-31-2019, 08:35 AM   #4
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Mark,

I just remembered that I have a spare chinstrap, bolts, and standard (not FJ liner. I will have to check on the size of the liner.

Now, the interesting thing is the straps are black leather. The common type is green leather that more-or-less matches the helmet color. However, I am suspicious that at some point (early?) black straps were used. Ironically, here's one on eBay right now:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/223605737460?ul_noapp=true

Ignoring the fact that someone tried to make this into a wartime helmet, the black straps are readily apparent and do not look like repros. My set is also apparently original. In fact, I have a second spare set black of straps (no screws) that looks original too.

Soooooo... does anybody know if black straps were ever used on the GSG-9 helmet?

Steve
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Old 08-03-2019, 04:10 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Collectinsteve View Post
...

Soooooo... does anybody know if black straps were ever used on the GSG-9 helmet?

...
Steve, I do own several of such "M38" -pattern helmets, manufactured for the GSG9, and, for SEK´s, (and, I have seen many more ! ).
All of them show green chinstraps.
I´ve never, ever, seen black ones !

But, the Bundeswehr also used several "M38" -pattern helmets, close to the GSG9/SEK -helmets.
They´re showin´ black chinstraps, some BW models also green ones.

Best regards,
R.
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Old 08-03-2019, 06:36 PM   #6
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Good to know! I also have never seen a GSG-9 helmet with black straps, but they are the most numerous helmet out there and it seems spare black straps can be found. I thought maybe the two were related.

I've seen black straps on some of the less common BW TrVsu helmets, but I thought the most common type (M38 style) always had gray straps. I looked through my collection of pictures and that's all I see.

Steve
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Old 08-07-2019, 09:39 AM   #7
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Thanks for the replies. I’ve received the shell and have cleaned off the rust prior to a repaint. The seller threw in some West German fire helmet liner bolts, but they’re really more for looks than functionality. For fun I’ve posed it with an example of the alleged Versuchshelm which I’ve put on here before. They are almost identical.

All leads on parts gratefully received.




Last edited by peregrinvs; 08-07-2019 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:28 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peregrinvs View Post
Thanks for the replies. I’ve received the shell and have cleaned off the rust prior to a repaint. The seller threw in some West German fire helmet liner bolts, but they’re really more for looks than functionality. For fun I’ve posed it with an example of the alleged Versuchshelm which I’ve put on here before. They are almost identical.

All leads on parts gratefully received.




Last edited by peregrinvs; 08-07-2019 at 11:28 AM. Reason: Trying to post photos...
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Old 08-08-2019, 09:14 AM   #9
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Hmmm... Not sure why my pictures aren't displaying. I *think* this is a link to the album on Google Pictures:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/5RRVXvTPK8Kk7q8U7
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Old 08-27-2019, 04:19 PM   #10
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Update: Had a bit of luck yesterday and picked up a cosmetically similar (when placed in the shell) German fire helmet liner. It’s about the right size and the front liner bolt holes line up correctly. Unfortunately the rear holes are too high and too close together, so a little engineering will be required to get it to fit correctly. But it was only £5.

For fun, I’ve also bought a pair of those black rubber gas goggles that are sometimes seen looped over a GSG-9 helmet. They came from here if anyone needs some:

https://www.troph-e-shop.com/de/bund...estposten.html

I’ve also bought some RAL 6005 Moosgrün paint with which I am intending to recreate the original textured finish.

I’m still after a postwar green FJ helmet chinstrap set and a set of liner bolts, if anyone has any leads?
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Old 08-30-2019, 01:34 PM   #11
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for GSG9 helmets you want RAL6012 Schwarzgrün! GSG9 continued to use the old helmet paint colour.
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Old 08-31-2019, 02:30 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus1989 View Post
for GSG9 helmets you want RAL6012 Schwarzgrün! GSG9 continued to use the old helmet paint colour.
Most of the GSG-9 helmets I can find online appear to be painted Moss Green, so that’s what I went with. Does Moss Green indicate non-GSG-9 usage? What do you mean by the ‘old’ helmet colour?

In other developments, I have succeeded in modifying the fire helmet liner to fit the helmet shell + I have carried out a successful test assembly using the fire helmet bolts and a repro M38 chinstrap assembly as a stand-in.
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Old 09-01-2019, 01:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peregrinvs View Post
Most of the GSG-9 helmets I can find online appear to be painted Moss Green, so that’s what I went with. Does Moss Green indicate non-GSG-9 usage? What do you mean by the ‘old’ helmet colour?
all of the GSG9 helmets i have seen look Schwarzgrün, so not sure what you mean. The only non GSG9 usage was SEK, but that vary by Land. "Old helmet colour" = colour used for the regular BGS Stahlhelm (M53) and equipment before 1976, which was RAL 6012. After the new uniforms they adopted a greener colour (Moosgrün or sometimes Minzgrün) for M53 helmets and some equipment to match. GSG9 continued to use old Schwarzgrün.
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Old 09-01-2019, 04:23 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus1989 View Post
all of the GSG9 helmets i have seen look Schwarzgrün, so not sure what you mean. The only non GSG9 usage was SEK, but that vary by Land. "Old helmet colour" = colour used for the regular BGS Stahlhelm (M53) and equipment before 1976, which was RAL 6012. After the new uniforms they adopted a greener colour (Moosgrün or sometimes Minzgrün) for M53 helmets and some equipment to match. GSG9 continued to use old Schwarzgrün.
Having consulted my RAL colour cards I think you’re right and I’ve gotten two similar colours mixed up. I’d read before that the BGS used Moss Green and I appear to have assumed that the GSG-9 helmets were the same colour - having only pictures on a computer screen to go by.

Ah well, looks like I need to buy some 6012. Perhaps the can of 6005 I bought can be used to restore a BGS helmet one day?
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Old 09-05-2019, 12:40 AM   #15
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the texture in the paint is also important for correct look. Probably aluminium oxide, at least it seem same. Look forward to see results of restoration!
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