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Luftwaffe kurssteuerung K23
Old 08-12-2017, 08:25 AM   #1
mig2830
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Default Luftwaffe kurssteuerung K23

Hi,

Does anyone know about documentation for the Siemens-LGW K23 kurssteuerung?. It seams hard to find photos or other documents covering the K23 autopilot.

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Old 08-12-2017, 11:31 AM   #2
Funksammler
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There is not a lot available. Kurt Kracheel published some schematics and a description in his book. Other than this there is some US intelligence as they captured a number of units, completed them and test flew them after the war. The K23 was a further development of the K22 with the LRM12 servo replaced by a simple electric servo controlled by a so called "ITA-regler". In the K23 all the main components (Dämfungskreisel, Normalkraftmesser, Mischgerät and ITA-regler) were all united into a single control unit. I will probably publish something on the k22 and K23 in future...

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Old 08-13-2017, 09:41 AM   #3
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Hi Funksammler,

Thank you for the info, looking forward to read you publication on the K22 and K23.

In the meantime, where can I find documentation on the K22 system, it seams to be just as hard to find as the K23.

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mig2830
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Old 08-13-2017, 05:55 PM   #4
rv12p2000
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Hello

Some technicals informations about lgw k23

http://cdn.rochesteravionicarchives....%26A-1b%29.pdf

see page 547

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RV12P2000
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Old 08-15-2017, 02:09 PM   #5
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There is some info (including a link to photographs of K22 components still in place) in this thread: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=882285

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Old 08-15-2017, 04:06 PM   #6
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Hello Funksammler,

Thanks for the tip, yes I do se some equipment, a box with K-3 behind the pilots seat, and on the other side a "Wiederstandkasten", in the wheel well a connector marked K-20 and below some boxes that could be gyros. Also a box marked K-1.

Do you know what the equipment are and the interconnections?

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Old 08-26-2017, 10:54 AM   #7
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Hi,

I have been looking on the photos of the ME262 night fighter and you are right, there is a almost intact K22 still in place.

I have identified a "Verteilerkasten" K-1 in the right wheel well, The "Mischgerät" next to it (the cover is removed so you can identify the internals compared with a photo from cdvandt), the "kurskreisel" and the "normalkraftmesser" back to back on the main spar, the "wiederstandkasten" on the left cockpit wall behind the pilot (again cover is off and internals can be matched with a photo on cdvandt), the "ergänzungsgerät" on the right cockpit wall behind the pilot as well as the "rudermaschine" in the tail of the plane.

In the right wheel well there is also a connector marked K20, I gues that this is for connecting the "prüffgerät" to the system.

Also ther is a relay in the tail next to the "rudermaschine" K24, could be for engage disengage the autopilot.

The "Knüppelgreif KG 13R" is also visible as well as the foundation for the "kursmotor"

Most interesting book Funksammler recommended. Is the any original documentation available for the K22 system?

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mig2830
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Old 08-27-2017, 07:08 AM   #8
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Again very little documentation is available on the K22, but it seems that it consists mainly of standard K12 components with the "Ergänzungsgerät" (integrator) and "Normalkraftmesser" and the improved LDK11 "Dämpfungskreisel as new components.

I have not been able to spot a relay near the rudder machine, do you mean the connector fitted to the "Spant"? Note that the servo lever has been disconnected from the rudder servo, the end normally connected to the servo is now dangling loose, resting on another loose part lying in the tail. The must have disconnected it during post war test flights, worried that the rudder servo might block free rudder movement.

The LRM/12 has a "normally open" safety valve, which keeps the two sides of the hydraulic piston connected (Kuppelventil). With the autopilot switched off, this ensures that the oil can circulate freely and that the LRM/12 does not block the movement of the rudder.

This system was deemed sufficiently reliable by the Luftwaffe that they no longer required the mechanical emergency release on the servo lever fitted to the earlier K4 autopilot.

regards,

Funksammler
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Old 08-27-2017, 02:24 PM   #9
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Hi

Looking again, et is fitted an the left side on the spant looking back. The number is not K24 but K26, and by examining the photo closer it is probably a "verteiler" fore the power supply.

I see the connector at the flour of the tail, as well as the lever for the rudder, disconnected from the rudder drive itself.

Can you see what it is that is on the flour apart fro the two items mentioned?

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Old 08-28-2017, 08:18 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mig2830 View Post
Hi

Looking again, et is fitted an the left side on the spant looking back. The number is not K24 but K26, and by examining the photo closer it is probably a "verteiler" fore the power supply.

I see the connector at the flour of the tail, as well as the lever for the rudder, disconnected from the rudder drive itself.

Can you see what it is that is on the flour apart fro the two items mentioned?

best regards
mig2830
I can't make out what the loose part is, it is definately not part of the rudder servo. Perhaps it was part of the oxygen system that was removed from the tail (you can still see the clamps where the oxygen bottles were attached).

regards,

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Old 08-29-2017, 03:19 PM   #11
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Looking again at the photos and comparing to a "geräteliste" from a ME 262A-1a/U2 all weather fighter, the "verteilerkaste K-1" is not what I thought, but a "widerstandkaste LKW22" K-4. It is hard to see the number 4 in the shadow of some wires.

So the kurssteuerung in the ME262B-1a/U1 in South Africa is almost complete, only missing the "Kursmotor" and the "führertochterkompass" FL23338.

What is the difference of the LKW12 and LKW22

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Old 08-30-2017, 04:34 AM   #12
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To understand the difference, first have a look at the K12 autopilot: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hc217jvsm1...pilot.pdf?dl=0

Early autopilots, such as the K4, K12 and PKS11 were designed for relatively large, slow aircraft. They used a gyroscope (either the LKU4 "Kurskreisel" or the PKZ12 "Kurszentrale") to provide a measurement of the deviation angle from a set course.

With the need to develop autopilots for the more nimble fighter aircraft (Jägersteuerungen) the developers quickly found that gyroscopic angle measurement instruments introduced errors due to the high banking angles when flying curves. So they had to find a different way to generate the angle signal.

The mathematical relationships between the angle, the angular velocity and angular acceleration are relatively simple, you can calculate the angle if you integrate the angular velocity. Fortunately the measurement of angular velocity (with a "Dämpfungskreisel") is not greatly affected by the banking angle so in the "Jägersteuerungen" an electronic or electromechanical means of integrating was devised. In the K21 this was done by means of a small electric motor ("Integrationsmotor"), this was simplified again in the K22 by using a capacitive circuit ("Ergänzungsgerät).

So the first difference between the K12 and K22 is that the "Ergänzungsgerät" replaces the Kurskreisel to provide the angle signal. At the same time, the rate of change gyro (Dämpfungskreisel) was upgraded to ensure it would give a pure signal without introducing the errors of the DK1.

The second problem to solve was to allow the aircraft to fly curves with a constant and defined rate of turn. This is of importance when flying blind in formation, you want all aircraft to turn with the same rate to keep them in formation.

In the K12, the rate of turn is determined by the speed of the "Kursmotor" and the "Vorgabe" rate of turn signal used by the autopilot; resistors are used to tune the rate of turn to 1 or 2 degrees per second.

Again in the faster fighter aircraft using high banking angles, this approach no longer worked. For this reason a "Normalkraftmesser" was introduced, measuring the g-force generated in curves. When the g-force was high, the rate of turn was automatically reduced by slowing down the "Kursmotor' and reducing the "Vorgabe" signal.

As far as I am aware, these are the main changes made to the K12 to adapt it for use in faster fighter aircraft.

Patin went through a similar development to adapt their PKS11 into the PKS12 Jägersteuerung.

regards,

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Old 08-31-2017, 11:47 AM   #13
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Thank you Funksammler, most interesting reading.

I have come across the follow link to the installation of a K23 in a TA152.https://www.ta-152.de/kursmotor-fl-22563-1/ It shows clearly the "one box" approach.

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Old 09-08-2017, 01:56 PM   #14
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Hi,

I have just come across a book about control systems, where I found what I believe is the "Dämpfungskreisel" LDK11 schematic.
How do I insert an image here?

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Old 09-09-2017, 12:43 PM   #15
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You have to use an external host, since the demise of Photobucket I use Imgur.

regards,

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