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UK to ban sale of ivory
Old 10-09-2017, 06:09 PM   #1
Nolan
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Default UK to ban sale of ivory

It's my understanding that there is already a ban on the sale of ivory in the USA albeit that there is a time line of 100 years, I was just wondering how this has affected the sale of ivory gripped Heers and 2nd Lufts over there, has anyone encountered any problems?

Nolan
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:10 PM   #2
Billy G
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International shipping of such items has become quite problematic as a result, altbough I don't think it has completely stemmed their sale. Essentially they are taking something that was legitimately sold & legal & making it criminal ex post facto. Very typical of the way things are done these days.
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Old 10-10-2017, 01:43 AM   #3
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Wittmann currently has a navy dagger with an ivory grip for sale. So, can he not legally sell it?

I'm all for saving elephants and rhinos but how is banning the sale of a 90 year old dagger going to prevent the slaughter of those animals today?
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Old 10-10-2017, 10:54 AM   #4
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In order to avoid the whole customs hassle, I have found that the following works for me:

I ask for the dagger and the grip to be shipped separately, minimizing the chance of inspection (a blade typically attracts more notice than a grip would as long as it is not described as ivory.

I have also shipped a dagger and carried the grip personally through security and customs (in my pocket).

I have also seen some dealers no longer calling it ivory, but using a term such as 'bone grip'.

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Old 10-11-2017, 06:47 PM   #5
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Thanks for the replies, as I look round US antique dealers and auction sites I see many Bronze and Ivory sculptures from the art deco period (1920's/30's) still being advertised for sale, personally I think it will just drive the trade underground, like drugs.

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Old 10-11-2017, 07:11 PM   #6
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The ban has been in effect for years and it doesn't seem to have any effect on the slaughter of animals. Maybe a 20 year prison sentence for those caught killing elephants and rhinos might work better.
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:11 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianK View Post
The ban has been in effect for years and it doesn't seem to have any effect on the slaughter of animals. Maybe a 20 year prison sentence for those caught killing elephants and rhinos might work better.
I agree but I have heard recently of people at an antique show getting arrested for having ivory. Not worth messing with these days!
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Old 10-12-2017, 09:40 AM   #8
Manalishi
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I agree but I have heard recently of people at an antique show getting arrested for having ivory. Not worth messing with these days!
Bob

Bob, is that modern post-ban ivory or decades old pre-ban ivory?

Anybody selling post-ban ivory from recent elephant killings should face a long jail sentence.

Some countries used to have a "shoot on sight" policy for poachers. I wonder if that's still in place?

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Old 10-12-2017, 09:48 AM   #9
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Hi!
Anyone who shoots an elephant without a permit is asking for problems. The problem is "ivory" in general has become a problem of any age. The old ivory that was fine becomes a problem these days. I think there are still some exceptions but....., hey, who has documentation on ivory 100 years old? You "might" be right but it "might" cost you 10,000 USD to prove you were "right".
Slightly before this became a problem I sold two forestry cutlasses with ivory grips for good money. They later sold for a fraction of what they should have, I think it was do tot he change in the laws!
Political correctness is not as correct as they often think it is and often causes more problems then people expect!
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Old 10-13-2017, 12:25 AM   #10
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It's too late to do anything for the animals after the ivory has been fashioned into drinking cups or dagger handles. It's best to fix it on the other end, either by preventing the killing in the first place, or enacting stiff punishment for those who kill.
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Old 10-13-2017, 07:05 AM   #11
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I recently watched a TV (UK) show where antique dealers are invited into homes to value and bid for items and one particular show springs to mind. The householder had a1920/30 art deco figure made of bronze and ivory, the dealers were offering silly bids of 3k-5k but stopped bidding on it when the owner stated that he had purchased from a top London Dealer at a premier antiques fair and had paid 20k, so now is he stuck with a very expensive paperweight or What.

Prince William says he would like to see ALL ivory, regardless of age, crushed, including that in the Queens collection, maybe they should have an amnesty where owners can surrender ivory items and, (this the best bit) be compensated at the original cost by the government, somehow I can't see that happening, just a thought.

Glad I sold my ivory gripped Voos to Ulric

Cheers

Nolan
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:19 PM   #12
Serge M.
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In the states, they are getting 'tough' on Ivory. here's a visual of what they do:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...rW8df_x8odbay-
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Old 10-13-2017, 03:18 PM   #13
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So, let's see: it's already banned, you can already go to jail for harvesting and selling it, and yet thousands of elephants are STILL harvested each year for ivory... anyone want to explain to me how destroying historical artifacts somehow stops this? Good grief, the world has lost its mind.

I wholeheartedly agree that the harvesting of NEW ivory must be stopped, but there's no convincing argument regarding why old artifacts, those made when it WASN'T illegal, should be subject to regulation, let alone destruction. This is more "feel-goodery" by a society that really has no good solutions to the problem. It's no different to the knee-jerk, useless gun regulations that are attempted every time there is a mass shooting.

As the article Serge linked to points out, this will just drive underground ivory prices higher.
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Old 10-13-2017, 04:44 PM   #14
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Regulations in the US are more draconian than in the UK, in that any import of ivory that doesn't have a Cites certificate will be destroyed. At an antiques fair, Last year (in Florida, I think), British antique dealers had any item that contained ivory and didn't have relevant paperwork,destroyed in their presence. We are not talking ivory statues, we are talking about small ivory washers that act as heat isolators between silver teapots and their handles. A 1780s mechanical singing bird had its feathers plucked because the dealer could not prove that they didn't come from an endangered species. It was estimated that about £100,000 (130,000 US$) of antiques were destroyed (reference Antiques Trade Gazette).
The rules at present, in the UK, are that the sale of ivory products are allowed as long as they are pre 1947. The date is significant as the detonating of atomic bombs means that any organic matter will have radio active isotopes, if the have been alive since then. Dead matter such as earlier ivory won't. Relatively recently, the ban was extended to include all unworked pieces of ivory, namely tusks, whatever the age.
The new rules propose a ban on all ivory products that do not have 'artistic value'. Therefore the onus is to determine what that entails. A dagger can be construed as a work of art, and hopefully get past the laws. Ironically, the new rules won't apply to pianos, which have ivory keys. Even Ebay allows the sale of them
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Old 10-13-2017, 06:36 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradeantiques View Post
Regulations in the US are more draconian than in the UK, in that any import of ivory that doesn't have a Cites certificate will be destroyed. At an antiques fair, Last year (in Florida, I think), British antique dealers had any item that contained ivory and didn't have relevant paperwork,destroyed in their presence. We are not talking ivory statues, we are talking about small ivory washers that act as heat isolators between silver teapots and their handles. A 1780s mechanical singing bird had its feathers plucked because the dealer could not prove that they didn't come from an endangered species. It was estimated that about £100,000 (130,000 US$) of antiques were destroyed (reference Antiques Trade Gazette).
The rules at present, in the UK, are that the sale of ivory products are allowed as long as they are pre 1947. The date is significant as the detonating of atomic bombs means that any organic matter will have radio active isotopes, if the have been alive since then. Dead matter such as earlier ivory won't. Relatively recently, the ban was extended to include all unworked pieces of ivory, namely tusks, whatever the age.
The new rules propose a ban on all ivory products that do not have 'artistic value'. Therefore the onus is to determine what that entails. A dagger can be construed as a work of art, and hopefully get past the laws. Ironically, the new rules won't apply to pianos, which have ivory keys. Even Ebay allows the sale of them
Interestingly, the Minister who so enthusiastically announced the ban has a wife who 'tinkles the ivories' , ho hum.
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