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Switch from Fu 2 to Fu 5 in the Panzers...
Old 08-07-2003, 01:13 AM   #1
Jon
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Default Switch from Fu 2 to Fu 5 in the Panzers...

Hello!

I am wondering when the switch from Fu 2 to the Fu 5 would have taken place. I have a quote from New Vanguard 39 PzKpfw IV G, H & J by Tom Jentz. On page 9 it says:

"In 1942, each PzKpfw IV issued to a platoon leader or company commander was equipped with a Fu 5 ultra short-wave transmitting and receiving radio set, an Fu 2 ultra short-wave reciever, and an intercom set. The remaining three PzKpfw IV in each platoon only had one short wave receiver and an intercom set."

I know, at least I think I do, that later in the war all German tanks had transmitting and receiving sets. Does anyone know when exactly they switched to the Fu 5 in all the Panzers?

Also, in the Fu 5, I know that the Panzer Commander can hear the incoming radio messages along with the radio operator if he has his switch to a certain position (from info from Tigerfibel and Pantherfibel), what I am wondering is if this is similar in the Fu 2? Can the Panzer Commander hear the incoming radio messages as in the Fu 5?

Many thanks to anyone that can help and/or provide information!

Cheers,

Jon
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Old 09-15-2010, 02:36 AM   #2
Yuri D.
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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Fu2 just the Ukw.E.e receiver by itself?

The Fu5 is the Ukw.E.e+10W.S.c together. The final configs in most battle tanks was the Fu5+Fu2 = two receivers and one transmitter.

Yuri
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:49 AM   #3
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Please explain.

Why two receivers?
Did they was so unreliable?
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Old 09-16-2010, 05:01 AM   #4
Dufleuve
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Look at Yuri site, section on intercom boxes, description of the Panzerkasten 20 .

It clearly explains why a second receiver set is used.

On the other hand, one also as to consider that radio/intercom tubes were sometimes shattered when the panzer got successfully shot at. Having two receivers also ensures a kind of resiliency.
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Old 09-17-2010, 11:45 PM   #5
Tim O'Keefe
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You are correct. In the begining of the war only the AFV platoon leader was capable of transmitting (Fu5) and receiving (Fu2), the rest of the platoon had just the receiver (Fu2). In North Africa this was the case till the surrender. Not sure when the transformation took place so that all AFV were capable of transmitting and receiving, but had to be late '43 or after...Seems unlikey for tight command control, but when You consider the Russian AFV had only one radio per AFV company the German AFV had a distinct advantage in command control right till the very end.
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Old 10-09-2010, 03:39 PM   #6
Funksammler
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I think the earlier quote is not clearly phrased. There is no switch from Fu2 to Fu5 set, the change was that instead of just the Fu5, "normal" tanks also were equipped with the Fu 2 in addition to their Fu5.

German Panzers were fitted with receivers and transmitters right from the start. In fact radio communication for each tank was one of the elements that Guderian pushed for from the start and a critical success factor in the Blitzkrieg tactics. In the early tank battles in France it was probably the German's superior communications that won the day, the French armour was superior in strenght and numbers but lacked radio's in each tank.

Early equipment standards included the Fu5 and Fu6 sets. The early panzer type I and II were quite small, no space for a second receiver. I think they started fitting the second receivers to the Panzer III for the company commanders. The need for a second receiver is all about the organisation of the panzer formations and the associated radio networks.

For example the transmitter and main receiver of the Fu 5 set would be tuned to the company network, the second receiver (Fu 2) would be tuned to the Battalion network. The company network was essential for communicating local threats, targets, obstacles and anything that would keep the unit moving. The Batallion network was used to keep overall control over the Companies. The Batallon commander in turn would be netted into the Battalion network through a special command set.

Originally this command set consisted of the Fu6 set (also a VHF set with a slightly higher powered 20 W transmitter) later the command networks switched to the longer range Medium Wave equipment (Fu8: Mw.E.c & 30.W.S.c).

The addition of the second receiver to "normal" tanks made them more flexible. Later in the war, tanks units rarely operated at company level, small formations of a couple of tanks were more common. The role of unit commander could be taken up from any tank in the unit making it easier to switch formations.

regards,

Funksammler
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Old 10-11-2010, 01:27 AM   #7
Tim O'Keefe
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Hello Funksammler

If i understand Thomas Jentz's book "Tank Combat in North Africa" pages # 27 -33 correctly, in the early days only the platoon leaders, and section leaders had both the Fu2 & Fu5. The "normal" tanks only had the Fu2 receiver. This included the Pz II early versions and the Pz III f/g/h versions and the Pz IV d/e versions. Still an advantage over the French that did not have radios in all their tanks. The English did have transmitters/receivers in all their tanks.

Also disagree that the French had numbers over the Germans. The French did have better tanks and more of them, But they were dispersed, not concentrated in the various formations at the time of actual combat. The Pz Div's attacked with a concentration of Pz 's at a given point. So the Germans had the advantage in numbers in most instances. The few times the French/English did concentrate their tanks the Germans found it very tough going....

Guderian wanted both the Fu2 & Fu5 to be in every tank but this was not the case in France or North Afrika.

kind regards
Tim

Last edited by Tim O'Keefe; 10-11-2010 at 01:32 AM.
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Old 10-11-2010, 03:37 PM   #8
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Well, every original document, period photograph and all secondary sources I have seen so far indicate that the German tanks are equipped with a transmitter and one or two receivers.

For example D 1003/1 "Das Funkgeraet im Panzerkampfwagen II" starts with the sentence: Die Pz.Kpfw. II sind mit Funkeinbauten fuer Sender und Empfaenger ausgeruested." I could quote others, but this example illustrates that even the earlier Panzers were prepared to be equipped with transmitter and receiver. True, they could ommit the transmitter (in which case the intercom between commander and wireless operator/loader would no longer work in early versions of the Pz Kpfw. II), but why would they? Production numbers for the 10 W.S.c far outstrip those of the Panzers, so availability should not have been an issue.

Another issue that Guderian fought hard for was the addtion of a wireless operator to the standard crew of the German panzerwaffe, something that would seem superfluous if only a receiver was fitted.

what sources state that only receivers were in use?

regards,

Funksammler
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Old 10-11-2010, 04:00 PM   #9
Tim O'Keefe
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Hello,

Thanks for the further info. I too had thought that the Pz's had both Tr/Rc but was surprised when i read in Jentz's book "Tank Combat in North Africa" pages # 27 -33, in the early days only the platoon leaders, and section leaders had both the Fu2 & Fu5. The "normal" tanks only had the Fu2 receiver. Jentz makes a big point about this...

Does not make sense to me either, but they could be prepared to have both and yet not actually have done so ?

True, they could ommit the transmitter (in which case the intercom between commander and wireless operator/loader would no longer work in early versions of the Pz Kpfw. II), but why would they? Production numbers for the 10 W.S.c far outstrip those of the Panzers, so availability should not have been an issue.

Another issue that Guderian fought hard for was the addtion of a wireless operator to the standard crew of the German panzerwaffe, something that would seem superfluous if only a receiver was fitted.

These are good questions, not sure of the answer. It may have been a Hitler thing ? Though the RTO was also in control of the bow MG in the Mk III & IV.

with kind regards
Tim
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:31 PM   #10
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Thanks,

I don't have the Jentz book, so I don't know what his sources are. I do however think he meant to say "The "normal" tanks only had the Fu5 transmitter receiver", which is correct for the Pz II at least (I haven't been able to confrim the 35T yet, which was also quite numerous early on, but I suspect it had the Fu5 fitted).

From the Pz III onwards, all German tanks were fitted with the two receivers and had a dedicated radio operator sitting front right. In emergencies the wireless operator indeed operated the bow machine gun, but that was not his main task.

regards,

Funksammler
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Old 10-13-2010, 01:16 AM   #11
Tim O'Keefe
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Hello Funksammler

This also makes good sense to me. I am looking to see if Jentz made that mistake, seems very possible. Will get back to you once i receive confirmation.

Thanks
Tim
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Old 10-16-2010, 01:30 PM   #12
Tim O'Keefe
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Hi Funksammler

Have some more info to share. Mike Pruett our esteemed mod sent me a great link. You are 100% correct in your earlier statements. Not sure how Jentz got it wrong or if he just meant to say Fu5 instead of Fu2 (though he does mention this numerous times). Anyways the Pz's did have both a Tr/Rc in almost every Pz. The command Pz's having quite a bit more capabilty as You mention.

Here is the link that You will enjoy i'm sure...

http://www.armyradio.com/arsc/custom...ank_Radios.htm

Thanks Funkslammer & also Mike for setting me straight on this matter.

with best regards
Tim
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Radio liaison in tanks.
Old 10-29-2017, 10:05 PM   #13
tigre
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Default Radio liaison in tanks.

Hello to all ; a complement.....................

Radio equipment in the Pz Kw 38 (t).

The tank had the following specifications: Radio equipment: UKW Fu 5 ........


Radio operator and communications equipment in a Pz Kw 38 (t), UKW Fu 5 ?? .......................................

Source: http://www.ebay.de/itm/251276282571?...351&rmvSB=true
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/Pz38.htm

Cheers. Raúl M .
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Old 10-30-2017, 04:40 AM   #14
johann mor
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Passage and picture taken from panzer tracts "Panzerkamfwagen II" a very informative publication, well worth purchasing as are all their books. This was part of the specification for the preproduction PZII Ausfuehrung a/1 to a/3. It looks like a transmitter and receiver were specified from the start. If you look at the interior picture there are two spaces for a transmitter and receiver but it appears, from the inclusion of the voice tube in the upper picture, that there was no intention initially, of having internal intercoms.


Jon
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Panzerkamfwagen II.
Old 10-30-2017, 04:09 PM   #15
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Default Panzerkamfwagen II.

Thanks for that info Jon . Cheers. Raúl M .
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